The Page vs the Knight

[Monica]

Okay, from what I know, the Page is a child whereas the Knight is a teenager.

One particular thing that can confuse me is the difference between them both traditionally, and what the difference is trying to convey to the Querent.

I am aware that using intuition during readings is more essential, and that making my own meanings towards these both cards would help a lot more...

And yes, I do trust my intuition during my readings... But it would still help a lot more If I knew what the page and knight objectively, just as how I know the basics of the magician and his powers, and the empress, emperor...

Yes, I have done my research, but still..

Page of cups and knight of cups, both basically means a younger person and a message.
Is that all?

[Charlie Brown]

I think that you may be conflating a couple of different ways of reading the court cards into one thing. The idea that a court card represents someone of a certain age comes from using significator cards to represent certain people. There are a couple of different ways to do that. By physical characteristics, I'd be King of Swords, by astrological/birthday, I'd be King of Pentacles. There are others still. However, when you're reading a court card as a significator, then you're reading it ONLY as representing the person, and NOT in any other kind of way.

It sounds like you're also reading courts in terms of function: Simplistically, you can say that Pages are about communicating, Knights are about acting, Queens are about understanding, and Kings are about controlling. So the Page of Cups would communicate Cups energy while the Knight of Cups would act with Cups energy.

What I like are the elemental correspondences. Here, Pages = Earth, Knights = Air, Queens = Water, Kings = Fire. So the Page of Cups = Earth of Water. Now, there's lots esoteric mumbo jumbo about what that means but, for me, I find it hard to wrap my mind around what "the watery part of the earth element" means, so I find it helpful to think about the word "in" instead of "of" so I think of the Page of Cups as Earth in Water. i.e. an island. What is an island? It's a place of habitability, refuge, etc within an otherwise hostile environment. If you look at the traditional Rider-Waite, the Page's cup provides what is effectively an island for the fish, who would otherwise be dead on the land. If you're adrift at see, you're glad to see an island. It's calm and quiet on the island. This is all just a metaphor, but I think it effectively communicates a picture of the page of cups as a simple and friendly character.

ETA: It's important to note that my elemental analogies only make sense when there's already a general sense of what the card might mean, which Nemia does a nice job of sharing below. So, an island, as a symbol, could also talk about isolation, etc. but that doesn't apply to the Page of Cups. It's more of a means of clarifying and keeping in mind what I've already learned rather than generating original meanings based on symbolic inference.

In short, there are lots of ways of looking at the court cards. Don't lock yourself in to any one before you really understand what you're doing but also don't think that these different ways are the same thing or are necessarily compatible with each other.

[Nemia]

They're very different imho. Pages are beginnings, young, immature, innocent, the optimism of youth (which you can have with 80, too) - you start something new, you have the rookie bonus, you don't know how something works. You're the learner (you or the person the card relates to - sometimes the court cards just catch the spirit of a situation but most of the time, they relate to people). The Page is the young boy starting to wash the brush and bucket of the master, bringing the beer and waiting for his turn to learn something.

The Knight is like a journeyman - he is much more mature, self confident, and competent. But he's not a master yet, and he's not ready to settle down. (Sorry for the many male metaphors - I could have used feminine ones, too, but in order to keep it short, let's stay with the masculine). We are Knights when we go out into the world in order to try what we have learned. We ride through the world with out knowledge and toolbox, and we are learning now how things really work. We don't have the optimism of the Page anymore - we know that the world can be unfair, that we can fail or that others can spoil our party. But we press on. We're on our way to the throne of mastery, of unchallenged authority, the place where we can sit down and take control of our fate (and since human life is the way it is, we never sit on that throne permanently - we start new cycles and turn into pages again when new chapters of life wisdom are about to be learned).

The Page of Cups is an innocent, freshly-in-love puppy who can see only wonderful things in the person or subject that enchants him/her. The Knigh of Cups is aware of his/her charm and charisma and uses them in a much more self-conscious manner.

The Page of Wands is enthusiastic about an idea or a project that's still in the planning stages, while the Knight runs the show and organizes everything.

The Page of Swords plays with new ideas and plans, with very basic but interestingly original analysis and the understanding that every problem can be seen and discussed from different angles. The Knight of Swords knows exactly what he/she's fighting for and rushes happily into battle.

The Page of Pentacles is just starting to take responsibility, and put ideas into practice. The Knight of Pentacles is a hard worker who will take on all the responsibility and will take care to see a project through from start to finish, tying all the loose end patiently.

They're really very different. Whenever you learn something new, you're a page. Whenever you know something well enough to prove it to yourself and the world, you're a Knight.

The Queen means that the learning stage is over and the lesson has been internalized. The King is able to lead and teach others. They're our mature selves - assertive and less flexible than the earlier stages. In the queen stage, there is often quiet inner joy that doesn't need any outside feedback or proof - you just know what to do. And in the king stage, this is not enough and we seek recognition for our abilities. That's when the danger of a certain rigidity becomes too strong - and some Page innocent questions should come up to burst our bubble

That's how I have come to see the court cards. When they're not stages in personal development, they're the energy around a situation project idea relationship....

[jaq]

Just weighing in here with my opinion ... I don't think we can say there is an objective way to look at any of the cards. All we can do is see what others do, try it on, see if it works, tweak it a bit, etc. That's experience, maybe not so much intuition (although some researchers would argue that intuition that works well mostly comes from experience). I personally also tend to see the court cards as ascending levels of maturity but then I really need to look at what the question is, what deck I'm using, what the surrounding cards are, what position the card stands for, etc.

I found Mary Greer's "21 Ways To Read A Tarot Card" very helpful in honing my skills. Have you tried a book or a course like that? Again, it's just one way (albeit a very thorough one) to look at the cards but it can be helpful to anchor oneself into one of those ways for a while.

For the fun of it - here's 160+ Pages of Cups. All different. Many carrying a different message. https://www.pinterest.ca/cherrynukacola ... s/?lp=true (it's on Pinterest, a great site for looking at various tarot cards and decks)

And all of this is just MY opinion. Far from objective!

[Monica]

I think that you may be conflating a couple of different ways of reading the court cards into one thing. The idea that a court card represents someone of a certain age comes from using significator cards to represent certain people. There are a couple of different ways to do that. By physical characteristics, I'd be King of Swords, by astrological/birthday, I'd be King of Pentacles. There are others still. However, when you're reading a court card as a significator, then you're reading it ONLY as representing the person, and NOT in any other kind of way.

It sounds like you're also reading courts in terms of function: Simplistically, you can say that Pages are about communicating, Knights are about acting, Queens are about understanding, and Kings are about controlling. So the Page of Cups would communicate Cups energy while the Knight of Cups would act with Cups energy.

What I like are the elemental correspondences. Here, Pages = Earth, Knights = Air, Queens = Water, Kings = Fire. So the Page of Cups = Earth of Water. Now, there's lots esoteric mumbo jumbo about what that means but, for me, I find it hard to wrap my mind around what "the watery part of the earth element" means, so I find it helpful to think about the word "in" instead of "of" so I think of the Page of Cups as Earth in Water. i.e. an island. What is an island? It's a place of habitability, refuge, etc within an otherwise hostile environment. If you look at the traditional Rider-Waite, the Page's cup provides what is effectively an island for the fish, who would otherwise be dead on the land. If you're adrift at see, you're glad to see an island. It's calm and quiet on the island. This is all just a metaphor, but I think it effectively communicates a picture of the page of cups as a simple and friendly character.

ETA: It's important to note that my elemental analogies only make sense when there's already a general sense of what the card might mean, which Nemia does a nice job of sharing below. So, an island, as a symbol, could also talk about isolation, etc. but that doesn't apply to the Page of Cups. It's more of a means of clarifying and keeping in mind what I've already learned rather than generating original meanings based on symbolic inference.

In short, there are lots of ways of looking at the court cards. Don't lock yourself in to any one before you really understand what you're doing but also don't think that these different ways are the same thing or are necessarily compatible with each other.

First of all thanks a lot for the information

The court cards have always been the cards that I have been least interested in XD Might be the reason why I do it so easy and simple for myself, but complicate it on the way. That pages are about communicating while knights are about acting helped

Haha at first I found it hard to wrap my mind around your concept about elements XD But after reading it like 5 times I did find it very interesting and deep. "In" instead of "of" sounds a lot deeper and even closer to the human. It's like combining what we already know, deep within us, instead of a concept we need to learn such as spirituality and how water is emotions and earth is etc. Now I just realized how the esoteric description of water is generally just a simplification. If I would be able to look at water from a different perspective, but still have the same root which is the emotions, healing, flow etc. We could say that water gives us satisfaction because of the water we drink, which keeps us alive, or how we cry tears, when it rains. Then there is a lot of different ways of looking at it, such as how you described it to be on earth instead of on us, but still affecting us. Instead of combining spirituality, you combine some type of psychological way of looking at it, which I think could be effective. There must be so many aspects that I'm unaware of XD

Since I myself is into all of these esoteric "mumbo jumbos" XD It would be easier of me to look at water a the elements as way would be a lot more practical for me, but that maybe shouldn't mean that I should only use only that thqnuique of looking at the elements.

Wait now I know.. Maybe when I know all of these different techniques, It would be much easier to channel messages, since my conscious mind would already have different "forms" or "maps" of different constructs of reading, instead of just one way, and that way my subconscious would have an easier way to try to tell me what it is trying to say!!

[Monica]

That's how I have come to see the court cards. When they're not stages in personal development, they're the energy around a situation project idea relationship....

Thanks a lot for clarifying!

Before I was the knight thinking I was the Queen, then I became the page and soon to be the knight again thinking I'm the kween again XD
(No I was the page all along, but I don't know it yet shhh don't tell me )

haha but no, staying as a student might be better for me! There is never enough to learn, which is why the King and the Queen could jump to the pages at times, and not only in the knowledge but in every single way I could never think of. which differ from all ages just as you said. But again as I have been told, I need to look at different perspectives than one, which means that learning could be divided into an endless amount of perspective leaning into one root, or leaning into another root, and then leaning into the roottest of the roottest root, which is the root of stages as you explained.
How the pages, knights queens and kings all are on some kind of level of whatever theme I would have intentionally chosen before choosing a card.

I also know now that I don't need to look at them as levels or stages, but as people, I know through the characteristics, appearance wise, personality, quirks, situations and so many more which I don't know but will

similarly and Metaphorically a (page)kid, a (knight)teen, an (queen)adult, and an (king)elder. Where kids are innocent, teens go through life with motivation and stride ready for challenges or purposes depending on the theme, adult finding peace, working with others, and Elder as said teaching etc.

Then there is the emotional way, which could jump from different stages at life, where maybe the queen of cups could be very emotional, but channeling those into being nurturing, but one day she gets hurt, and her emotional side channels her into being more logical (queen of swords or King)

etc etc

[Monica]

Thanks a lot!

Yes, objective maybe wasn't the right word, but rather subjective or another term that would describe the endless amount of ways of looking at things.

Haha the book "21 ways to read a tarot card" you mentioned, I actually found it today before I saw your post. I guess was guided to it

Thanks for the link! WIll definitely check it out!

Opinions are always needed