Consuming the Tarot

[Joan Marie]

People get interested in the Tarot for lots of reasons.
People enjoy the Tarot in lots of ways.
I believe that all of them are valid.

I wonder though if anyone else has seen a really strong trend in recent years of the growing dominance of the business side of tarot, or what you could call the commercialisation of it, while the study and craft seem to have taken a backseat.

I ask this question fully aware I am part of the problem.

I have nothing at all against anyone making a side-hustle out of something they love. And I am in no way questioning anyone’s motives. In fact one of my main motivations in creating The Cult of Tarot Forum was to give tarot artists of all kinds (deck creators, writers, readers, reviewers, etc.) a place where they could shamelessly (literally without shame) promote themselves to an audience of Tarot lovers.

As a deck creator myself, I had found it difficult to reach the people I wanted to with my work without being made to feel like some kind of criminal. How dare I promote my tarot-focused work to a tarot-focused audience, is how I was made to feel by various forums and online groups.

I found that attitude ludicrous. My thinking was, why put up a wall between creators and collectors? Surely there is space for everyone.

So I tried to create a place where people could do that, could freely share their work, their perspectives on Tarot. And I thought the way to do that was to build a dedicated audience for it with a forum. I imagined people gathering to have all sorts of tarot related discussions, people who would also be open to those promoting their work and sharing their special interest in the Tarot.

This was the original promotion image I created for this forum.

It sort of worked. Sort of.

But there is a problem. I see it not just on my forum, but all over the internet.
(Full disclosure, I have not personally scoured the entire internet for Tarot discussion sites, so you may likely have a very different perspective from mine. But here is what I am seeing.)

People who have things to promote (decks especially) are really mostly interested in only that, getting people to their kickstarters, Etsy shops and online stores.

I get it. There are only so many hours in a day.

I know personally just how competitive and difficult it is, with dozens of new decks coming out every month, to bring any awareness at all to your project.

You may be familiar with a monthly publication I did from Oct 2020 to Oct 2021, World of Decks News. I offered artists a chance to promote their work. I did this for free. I gave it up for a couple of reasons. Firstly, it was much harder to do than I thought it would be due to the sheer volume of new decks coming out every month. What I originally thought I could throw together in a few hours per month was taking days.

Sorry everybody, it just went from being fun and interesting (and personally rewarding to tell the sappy truth) to being a gigantic pain in the ass that I dreaded.

So after one year of putting out a free, and really informative and well-made newsletter (if I do say so myself) I had to give it up.

Secondly, I just couldn’t help but sense that none of this was really about Tarot anymore. It was pure commerce. I felt that for a lot of reasons I will explain.

I ask you now, am I the only one who has noticed a major drop in real in-depth discussion about Tarot online anywhere, coinciding with the massive rise in tarot related consumerism?

Just as in the past I saw a problem with artists being unable to reach their audience freely in online forums and groups, I now see serious students and practitioners of tarot unable to get through the haze of all the exciting new decks everyone wants to talk about, and all the people creating videos of themselves with these decks.

There are just so many new ways to communicate online these days. There are some serious topics being discussed but they all seem to be behind a paywall now in the forms of webinars and online courses. But just like deck creators, these efforts require access to an audience of people engaged in interest in the tarot.

What I’m getting at in my mixed-up way here, is that this audience, this community, has to a very large extent gone silent, simply consuming and not participating in any way other than with their credit-cards and paypal accounts. Or just retreating altogether.

I do realise I’ve had a hand, however small, in aiding this situation and I am here to take my lumps over it. I know I’ve made mistakes and I regret some of them. (but not all, truth be told.)

This whole subject really begs another question, which is, how are people using Tarot in the year 2022? Are in-depth online discussions simply passe’? Has everything interesting already been said? Is the zeitgeist now the hit-n-run style of Instagram, TikTok, and the like to feed the bottomless consumer appetite?

There is a digital-ton of Tarot stuff out there on these and other platforms. There are more people using tarot than ever before in the history of it. I know that people still use it in their personal lives, for all the same reasons they ever did.

But it feels sometimes like the main thing I see online is people is using tarot for clout, for gaining followers, selling stuff. This is the zeitgeist. I do not disparage it. It is reality. I must ask though, has something important and fundamental about how we share our craft been lost along the way?

I do seriously find it a pity that so few artists and others (I refuse to use the term content creators – that’s another discussion) initiate or participate in online discussions outside of promoting themselves. Or they only start their own discussions on their own platforms and refuse to chime in on anyone else’s. It’s as if nobody wants to risk sharing their own perceived “clout” by adding to or starting an interesting discussion on someone else’s website or platform, preferring to only play to their own devoted audiences.

And where does this leave everyone else, the people who only have a couple of trusty workhorse decks with no interest in the consumer spirit that seems to be driving so much of the online discussion?

I’m going to leave this here as I think I have opened several cans worms already.

I’m interested in your views. I realise I might have raised a few hackles and to some I may sound hypocritical but I am trying to learn and understand current trends and to improve. Also, I don’t think I am the only one wondering about these things.

If tarot consumerism (which I have nothing against) is the boat, isn’t the practice and craft and community the water that floats it?

From The Friar’s Delight Lenormand – look at me slipping a little self-promotion in!

If you have any thoughts on any of this, please take a moment to share them. I promise you that people will appreciate it. Even if they don’t agree, maybe especially if they don’t!

[DuckSoupProductions]

Yes. This.

So much of it is simply a "not enough hours in the day," as you pointed out.

But I have also reached a point where I fear to engage in any serious discussion, because there are so many haters and trolls out there, and anything you create or type can and will be used against you. In the 2020s, People are ANGRY, at every little thing and at the world and everyone in it. I dislike being used as a Punching Bag, especially when every response I make is twisted about and used as an excuse for more attacks. It makes ME Angry, too -- and the circle goes 'round.

I am exhausted with the confrontation, the hatred, the abuse, but also with the vapidity of so much of the "conversation." One of the big problems of a connected world is that everybody has a keyboard and nobody has restraint.

As a result, I've devoted almost all of my time at the computer to deck creation, because that's what makes me happy. I've even let purely promotional work slide, Because Reasons.

I'm sure you'll understand this: when you're one person wearing multiple and multifarious hats and doing the work of at least three people, exhaustion of various kinds sets in and things start to slide.

You're the only one doing anything positive. My hat is off to you. But meanwhile -- I have FIVE decks in progress and this isn't getting any design work done!

[Thelder]

...this audience, this community, has to a very large extent gone silent, simply consuming and not participating in any way other than with their credit-cards and paypal accounts. Or just retreating altogether.

I too find it perplexing that there are so many people who are so enthused about the tarot that they are willing to pay five hundred dollars or more on eBay for decks that have only been out of print a year or two (Spirit Keeper's for example), and yet that same enthusiasm does not seem to carry over into participation in online tarot forums.

I do not believe there is a simple answer to this. I know from personal experience that trying to acquire all the tarots on a wish list can take up a lot of time. I found myself spending so much time searching for tarots that I had no time to enjoy the decks I already owned, let alone participate in any online forums. It was only after I realized this and made the decision to reduce my wish list to a few "must-haves" that I found the time to participate in some forums.

I have also often wondered if people who are interested in the tarot (or spiritual pursuits in general) are more likely to be at the introverted end of the Myers -Briggs personality designation and therefore either less likely to participate in an online forum or likely to withdraw at the first sign of conflict or disagreement. This brings me to DuckSoupProduction's comment which I believe explains the reluctance of deck creators to be more involved in serious online discussions:

But I have also reached a point where I fear to engage in any serious discussion, because there are so many haters and trolls out there, and anything you create or type can and will be used against you.

I totally agree! When we live in a culture where it seems that every day there are reports in the news and online that someone has been fired or had their products boycotted because they said or wrote something that offended the "Speech Police," I can understand why deck creators would be reluctant to participate in any unnecessary online discussions that could result in their livelihood being threatened.

[Pen]

I've always resisted joining any of the social platforms, in spite of realizing that they are (or were) an opportunity to sell more of my work. Time to create was the main reason for this decision, but seeing how things have been going for the last few years I'm glad to have kept out of it. Collecting decks with artwork I admired was something of a passion at one time (along with tarot history), although I always said I'd stop when the collection reached 100 decks. Unfortunately the brakes were not too good and it took another 30 decks before I managed that. I was fairly active on the Tarot Collectors Forum and the Tarot History Forum at one time, but sadly they both went fairly quiet a few years ago, and the other few forums I used to visit became risky (Aeclectic too), for all the reasons mentioned in earlier posts. CoT is something of a sanctuary - credit and many thanks to Joan Marie for keeping it so.

Everything said so far on this thread reflects my own feelings and assessment of the situation exactly. It's difficult to predict the future direction of Tarot in 2022, but saying that on a tarot forum is perhaps a bit too left-brained of me. Things do usually reach an all-time low before the pendulum swings back (or the wheel turns), with the older tarot generation retreating/giving way to the younger to drive the zeitgeist, until they in their turn give way.

[jobarghest]

x

[Joan Marie]

Funnily enough, this post is getting a fair amount of traction on twitter and facebook due to being picked up by Benebell Wen.

I hope that some of the people who've been directed here will leave some comments here too.
(If you aren't a member, it takes like 2 seconds to join and you can post right away.)

Thanks everybody. It's so great to see such an interesting discussion and such thoughtful posts.

[BlueToy]

I posted this as a reply on FB to Benebell Wen's post regarding this thread. I figured I should post it here too, to at least maybe keep the ball rolling in terms of the discussion here:

"I used to be VERY active in Aeclectic, discussing tarot stuff. Heck even when I moved to FB, while I do sometimes do "ads" posts of my work, I try to also join the discussions whenever I can. Part of the reason I've lain low is because i don't have as much time as I usually had before. I have so much more to do now to earn a living compared to before. One of the other parts (and there are several) is because I tend to be more solitary when I do my research. I would ask questions in FB groups every now and then, but would do my research (and art development) on my own afterwards. Another part is how toxic and polarized "discussion" is nowadays (yes, in quotation marks, because it isn't even that nowadays). Things often spiral down to political mudslinging after a couple of replies. As an Asian man living in a third world country, a former colony of the US, i am particularly irked by the patronising and pedantic tone some people who comment take when entering the discussion. I also particularly find it ironic when I am told by Americans how I should be decolonizing. But I am glad that I am reminded of my forum days - thanks for that. I kinda miss it and will try to pop in those that I belong to when I can."

I would also like to add that it would be great to have some sort of forums renaissance - Facebook or Instagram's formats aren't optimal for discussion to be honest. If AT were still around, it could have been a rallying point, but any of the current forums we have can be too.

There's really so much more I want to say about these issues, about the overcommercialization, about the dilution in the quality of the discussions, engagements, and even depth behind the tarot art in tarot decks nowadays - but I have also so very little time for myself lately. It does frustrate me... I'll try to come back with some more thoughts when they are more organized, and I have a bit more time in my hands.

-Ly

[Joan Marie]

There's really so much more I want to say about these issues, about the overcommercialization, about the dilution in the quality of the discussions, engagements, and even depth behind the tarot art in tarot decks nowadays -

The Devil's Advocate is going to be very busy I suspect....


When I wrote the original post, I wasn't even thinking about the issue of the toxic nature of so much online discussion. But almost everyone who commented, here or on facebook or twitter, brought it up as a reason for engaging less online. People don't want to risk losing business with a remark or opinion that might meet with disapproval or getting into a pointless argument.

It's interesting to consider that the mass consumerism of tarot which I was initially addressing, has actually worked to silence the voices of the very people most engaged in tarot commerce or with a following they don't want to jeopardise.

Since real conversation is stifled, (outside of individual bubbles of personal blogs and such) all that's left is commerce.

But I don't want to reduce this topic to fear of "cancel culture." It's deeper than that. It's about a change that is possibly a result of the growth of consumerism. But they do feed one another, these two things.

In line with the initial post, it's kind of a shame this is largely being debated outside of the original thread. I feel it makes it difficult to discuss something so complex when so much is taken out of the full context.

I agree.

Btw @jobarghest what happened to your amazing post from yesterday? It seems to have disappeared.

[Benebell]

Thank you for starting this discussion! I did want to speak up and advocate on behalf of many silent content creators. (I know that’s not a likeable term, lol, but for the sake of communication, I can’t think of a better catch-all phrase right now, because not all of the people I’m referring to are authors, or deck creators, professional tarot readers, or YouTubers, etc.)

I don’t believe that content creators are silent on controversial, difficult, or substantive topics solely because of brand image or financial profit, and to dismiss it as just that is a bit simplistic. It’s mental health. It’s necessary self-preservation. When was the last time a content creator actually spoke up about an issue and didn’t get ad hominem attacks and trolled incessantly at the light end and, at the serious end, doxed, death threats, rape threats, the necessity of a mental health professional, and involvement of the police. So I’d like to point out that it isn’t just a matter of business-driven strategy and branding that a hustle is trying to preserve. Society has changed. The rules of conduct in the marketplace of ideas have changed.

And even when the reasoning IS only to preserve business profits, so what? So what if the full-time online tarot professional decides to keep quiet because she is a single mother of two and the money she earns from her tarot business puts food on the table and a roof over her children’s heads? How many of us with families and mortgages would willingly jeopardize our employment at corporate day jobs to “speak our truths” or because we must “be our authentic selves”?

As for the trend toward a more consumerist culture in the tarot community, I agree so much with the thoughts expressed so far. At first I was going to say it is a reflection of a trend toward a consumerist culture in general, in the mainstream, but I don’t know if that’s true. I recall critiques about the consumerist culture of the 80s, and then also in the 90s. Perhaps what is accurate to say is that the patina of the consumerist culture has shifted.

I do agree with what others have observed and it is totally fair to critique those who are in online tarot spaces just to promote their wares and don’t contribute to the actual discourse at all. I, too, have a personal distaste for that type of behavior. Or the self-professed supermodel spiritual guru and life coach who promises enlightenment and millionaire magic behind her pay wall. Maybe the social influencers “using tarot for clout” are just the 2020s version of the 1-900 psychic hotline infomercials.

And I guess, ultimately, my question is: what is the Ask here, of tarot authors, deck creators, professional tarot readers who have become social influencers, etc.?

Is it that they initiate tarot discussions beyond just promoting what they’re selling? When they do that, and they create a forum for tarot discussions, as commenters have noted, we accuse that forum of being a tarot community revolving around a specific social influencer and call that discussion forum a cult of personality.

Are we asking them to participate in other forums? Many do. And when they don’t, it’s almost always because they don’t feel welcomed there. Are we asking them to self-sacrifice their time, energy, and emotional bandwidth to engage in what is almost inevitably going to be a hostile experience that does them more harm than good?

But back to the topic of consumerism in the tarot community. I wonder how much of the reduction of substantive discourse relates to a shift in the target market/target consumer of tarot. I remember being a total tarot beginner, walking into a bookstore, and seeing both tarot books targeted at me (the beginner) and tarot books that were clearly over my pay grade at the time (advanced topics tarot books for the more intermediate practitioners). Recently I walked into a tarot bookstore and realized that was just not the case anymore. ALL the books on display were for total tarot beginners. So something in who the target consumer is has clearly changed.

[PamelaSteele]

For a bit over four decades, I've maintained that one of my life goals was to help bring tarot out of the backroom amidst the various labels of "occult", "witchcraft", and "devil worship" to name a few) and into the mainstream where people will consult their daily card(s) as they might their horoscope from either the newspaper (then) or their daily messenger. In that, I'm going to say that we have succeeded.

Joan Marie, you stepped up when Kate shut Aeclectic Tarot down and filled the void left by Aeclectic's former forum. What you did for a year with the new decks' promotion was nothing less than a herculean effort and I applaud and commend you for that labor. I did, however, think you were a tad bit masochistic as I was more than aware of the sheer number of decks being created and self-published. But, nonetheless, you did a magnificent job and I was not the least bit surprised by your decision to stop. There are just so many...

My question is, how many times and in how many ways can the tarot be reinvented, reinterpreted, redesigned, and reimagined? "Infinitely" seems to be the answer, but as an artist, the quality of many of the offerings is not anything that interests me. One, I'm a bit of an "art snob" and I really dislike poorly drawn or painted imagery. Many of the newly minted decks, in my humble opinion, are barely worth the paper they're printed on. And nothing bothers me more than to see a new deck that the buyer "must" take the creator's course to fully be able to work with the deck.

To me, tarot is the language of the soul. It goes back to the old adage, "A picture is worth 1,000 words." Yes, the books are valid as they explain the symbolism used, etc. But the core, the essence of the deck, should speak directly to our inner divinity. Again, this is my opinion. And as many have already stated in this discussion, publically giving my opinion can and has caused issues with certain groups. Fortunately, I really don't care. I've been at this for nearly 2/3 of my lifetime. I am too old to pretend to like something that I think is a waste of my time. If I like it, I will say so, but I have received decks that I'm asked to review that I cannot in good conscience review. This is an echo of my grandmother who drove it into my brain at a very young age that, "If you can't say something nice, shut up."

It is to preserve the integrity of the craft of tarot, and other divination systems, that I prefer to remain silent much of the time. I refuse to sully the arts with platitudes and "likes" that no one is going to remember in about 20 minutes when the next "shiny thing" lands on their screen. Tarot, divination, and art are the core of my being. We are here as creators. How we choose to use those gifts is up to the individual. What I strive for is authenticity. I tend to gather with others who strive for similar goals.

Also, if someone creates a deck thinking they're going to quit their day job and just let the cash flow, it rarely happens that way. In fact, almost never. Creation from the heart, for the love of the work, will generally pay for itself in monetary gain. Oh, it can happen. It does happen. But most creators have a far better chance of being struck by lightning. So, keep creating from the heart. See where it takes you. Because your deck will reach people that others do not.

[Joan Marie]

Thanks @Benebell for making the important distinction about there being reasons other than just fear of losing business that keeps many people from participating more in online discussions. Toxicity, and sometimes outright danger, have played a major role in lowering the level of discourse everywhere by silencing the voices of those who often have the most to say. People protecting their interests, and in some cases their personal safety, is completely understandable, but sadly no less a pity and a loss to the entire community.



Your last point raises a very real question that I think gets to the heart of a big part of this Devil’s Advocate theme.

But back to the topic of consumerism in the tarot community. I wonder how much of the reduction of substantive discourse relates to a shift in the target market/target consumer of tarot. I remember being a total tarot beginner, walking into a bookstore, and seeing both tarot books targeted at me (the beginner) and tarot books that were clearly over my pay grade at the time (advanced topics tarot books for the more intermediate practitioners). Recently I walked into a tarot bookstore and realized that was just not the case anymore. ALL the books on display were for total tarot beginners. So something in who the target consumer is has clearly changed.

Despite beginners being catered to so generously in the marketplace, this lack of diversity of thought and perspective is a disservice to them as well as to everyone else. It’s why so many readings we see these days sound like they came right out of a fortune cookie and then padded out with a few extra banalities and platitudes. ( I may have my next Devil’s Advocate topic now )

The target consumer, broadly speaking, is the one who buys the most stuff. That’s pretty much it. Or more accurately, the consumer who is perceived to buy the most stuff. So this blinkered, biased view that publishers and retailers have becomes, not only the driving force in what we see on store shelves, but also subsequently influences a lack of vitality overall in our community.

Of course this affects the level of our discourse. Before the internet, if you wanted to dig into esoteric knowledge you really had to go dig it out with a metaphorical shovel. In some places, where the soil was rock hard, that was really difficult. Then you had to find your people. That was even more difficult.

Now it is all (and I mean all) at our fingertips.

Has the sheer amount of possibilities actually made us less curious, less discerning somehow? Are people consuming just to consume, to feel part of something and sharing that kind of detached pleasure?

We are all playing a role in this.

We can become more discerning consumers of products and online engagements. We can be more open and willing to support the efforts of those trying to raise the standards of discourse. We can be more generous in considering other people's points of view. We can lower the toxicity at least a little by the sheer force of drowning it out with more substantive discussions and positive, fun interaction.

Can this ship be turned around, at least in part, by a concerted will to do so?

Let's never forget the immortal words of Bluto from Animal House:

Bluto.gif (937.67 KiB) Viewed 9128 times

I'm not giving up or giving in. I've thought about it. But I'm a Capricorn and stubborn as hell.

[devin]

What interesting thoughts.

I am rather shocked and surprised at the idea of any Tarot related disagreement, no matter how heated, degenerating to the level of death threats, police involvement, et cetera. It's certainly not something I've come across, and those who have been on the receiving end of such behaviour have my deepest sympathies.

Nastiness aside, why deck creators and Tarot 'personalities' no longer tend to participate on public platforms is perhaps of peripheral concern to the topic at hand. Far more puzzling to me is where the heck have all those thoughtful, dedicated Tarot non-personalities and amateurs gone? Even if the market has shifted, those aforementioned thoughtful practitioners must still exist? (Of course, there are still many intelligent and interesting Tarot fanciers represented online, but their numbers have dwindled substantially.)

One answer is the tone of online forums. The nastiness mentioned upthread. But are things really that bad? I personally don't think so. Yes, you get the same tired old disagreements revolving around fortune-telling, prediction, psychological Tarot, intuitive vs. systematic and so on, maybe even the odd spat on cultural appropriation, but I really don't find the general character of such exchanges to be unreasonably hostile.

A more likely for contender for me would be one of the following.

Marketization. In other words, everyone is so busy trying to monetize their interests and hobbies, in this case Tarot, that their thought processes and practice are very goal and market orientated, not leaving room for the kind of speculation and rumination required for interesting tarological innovation/conversation.

Social Media. Maybe the format and attendant payoffs of Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, TikTok, or whatever, have habituated the quick fix, the sound bite, and devalued long-form thought.

General cultural decline. Here Tarot is but one aspect of a far wider cultural trend toward dissolution. (See social media, the new age, post modernism, etc.)

Whatever the cause, my pessimism tends to incline me to see the problem less as the swinging of a pendulum and more as the downslope of a bell curve. Maybe Kris Hadar saw what was coming when he ditched the Tarot and went off chasing UFOs and shamans instead. It's sad. I miss vibrant forums. I am also pained to see some wonderful high-end material being relatively neglected. (For example, traditionaltarot.wordpress.com, a compendium of seminal and ground-breaking TdM thought. Check out the index for an idea of its treasures.)

For a bit over four decades, I've maintained that one of my life goals was to help bring tarot out of the backroom amidst the various labels of "occult", "witchcraft", and "devil worship" to name a few) and into the mainstream where people will consult their daily card(s) as they might their horoscope from either the newspaper (then) or their daily messenger. In that, I'm going to say that we have succeeded.

So is it a case of be careful what you wish for?

[jobarghest]

There's really so much more I want to say about these issues, about the overcommercialization, about the dilution in the quality of the discussions, engagements, and even depth behind the tarot art in tarot decks nowadays -

The Devil's Advocate is going to be very busy I suspect....


When I wrote the original post, I wasn't even thinking about the issue of the toxic nature of so much online discussion. But almost everyone who commented, here or on facebook or twitter, brought it up as a reason for engaging less online. People don't want to risk losing business with a remark or opinion that might meet with disapproval or getting into a pointless argument.

It's interesting to consider that the mass consumerism of tarot which I was initially addressing, has actually worked to silence the voices of the very people most engaged in tarot commerce or with a following they don't want to jeopardise.

Since real conversation is stifled, (outside of individual bubbles of personal blogs and such) all that's left is commerce.

But I don't want to reduce this topic to fear of "cancel culture." It's deeper than that. It's about a change that is possibly a result of the growth of consumerism. But they do feed one another, these two things.

In line with the initial post, it's kind of a shame this is largely being debated outside of the original thread. I feel it makes it difficult to discuss something so complex when so much is taken out of the full context.

I agree.

Btw @jobarghest what happened to your amazing post from yesterday? It seems to have disappeared.

Hi Joan, many apologies for this. I was uncomfortable as I heard the thread was being debated elsewhere out of context and think my meaning wasn't expressed adequately.

I definitely agree the root is consumerism, I'll try to clarify my meaning.

I enjoy tarot content and creators- I like vicariously enjoying their interests and skills. They don't take anything from anyone or control anyone and are often generous with time and knowledge.

But my concerns about social media in general inform the subjects of commerce and debate.

My intent was a serious concern about the fears experienced by "content creators" and indeed anyone online, and the fact online platforms turn people into products almost against their will. (Due to their addictive nature and rather isolating post system). Sites such as Insta even punish posters who don't publish personal photos of themselves, as their algorithm then limits their reach.

They can also get idealised and turned into icons, which is a serious pressure and again, can be paradoxically isolating. They don't do this deliberately.

It's rather that the circle and focus naturally revolves around the facilitator. This can be very good and similar to a teaching relationship or workshop, but can sometimes become unbalanced. Any hub which revolves round one person has the potential to be so.

Their empowerment and influence is also so fragile, as at any moment they could be attacked.

They also bear the responsibility of facilitating their discussions and answering followers, often far too many to practically do so. So it will always, without intentionally being so, be more one-sided than a forum. It also means discussions will tend to weight towards that person, which can limit the range of discourse and discovery.

I also think people are expected to be perfect, visually and in every other way, which is absolutely unsustainable for them and leads to a pressure to post accordingly a very limited range of stuff if they are to be safe and continue to make a living. It's wholly understandable they do so but a real shame that the environment necessitates this.

I think discussion works well within a centralised, neutral platform where everyone works together to find a positive and progressive approach. This has been lost, for a number of complex reasons. I would certainly hope tarot creators etc could feel comfortable on such forums and would be interested to know how to facilitate that. I think it might create a less polarised, anxious environment.

I'm also worried about the impact on social media of beauty ideals, which has naturally affected occult and Tarot circles. This, too, ties in with consumerism as businesses profit from everyone feeling insecure. I see many occult accounts which are celebrated only for this reason and these ideals tacitly exclude people who don't match them. It doesn't affect me personally, but I do read about people who feel they can't contribute as they don't want to be physically visible.

I worry that we lose a lot of interesting voices this way, or that people feel excluded.

I agree with others who say commercialisation is partly driven by time limitations. I enjoy deck collection videos and do sometimes struggle to concentrate on long videos. But I also love in depth discussions and find it so hard to find these online! COT is a rare exception but as few people use forums now it's difficult to get a timely conversation going. It's quite isolating to post enthusiasms and recieve no response. Insta / fb can facilitate discussion but I love reading long essays and conversations which don't suit the platform

I think also that commercialisation is influenced by anxiety. Humans are wired to collect in order to feel secure, and modern life is certainly anxiety provoking. I love the varied art in decks but there is so much coming out now that it's difficult to keep up with it all, and a lot is missing the complexity that comes with deep reading and long experience. I get disappointed with beautiful decks that don't have the emotional complexity which would do the artists skill justice.

I think the anxiety prevalent in modern life also affects our ability to create depth discussion. Anxiety lends itself to speed, to ungrounding, to distraction.

Social media is mainly visual as site designers discourage excludes written discussion - it's not as marketable. So it sways the type of interaction that occurs.

Social media for instance gets most of its revenue from advertisers so it rewards and bullies towards an advertising modality. As most decks, individuals and conversations happen there, so it feeds a commerce-based dialogue. I think it's great that tarot is no longer taboo but there is a risk that the mystery and beauty and uncontainableness of it all is obscured or erased by this.

I also so agree with the lack of detailed books off-the-shelf. From what I understand of bookselling this is happening across the board right now. I think in general training is expensive and some skills have been lost, so a lot of people are at beginner level in many things. People are oftrn too stressed and anxious to focus in detail. It's great they are learning but I think a lot of publishers hope to catch curious people who are just looking in on a topic, and aren't willing to invest in people looking to specialise (likely as that market is smaller).

[jobarghest]

What interesting thoughts.

I am rather shocked and surprised at the idea of any Tarot related disagreement, no matter how heated, degenerating to the level of death threats, police involvement, et cetera. It's certainly not something I've come across, and those who have been on the receiving end of such behaviour have my deepest sympathies.

Nastiness aside, why deck creators and Tarot 'personalities' no longer tend to participate on public platforms is perhaps of peripheral concern to the topic at hand. Far more puzzling to me is where the heck have all those thoughtful, dedicated Tarot non-personalities and amateurs gone? Even if the market has shifted, those aforementioned thoughtful practitioners must still exist? (Of course, there are still many intelligent and interesting Tarot fanciers represented online, but their numbers have dwindled substantially.)

One answer is the tone of online forums. The nastiness mentioned upthread. But are things really that bad? I personally don't think so. Yes, you get the same tired old disagreements revolving around fortune-telling, prediction, psychological Tarot, intuitive vs. systematic and so on, maybe even the odd spat on cultural appropriation, but I really don't find the general character of such exchanges to be unreasonably hostile.

A more likely for contender for me would be one of the following.

Marketization. In other words, everyone is so busy trying to monetize their interests and hobbies, in this case Tarot, that their thought processes and practice are very goal and market orientated, not leaving room for the kind of speculation and rumination required for interesting tarological innovation/conversation.

Social Media. Maybe the format and attendant payoffs of Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, TikTok, or whatever, have habituated the quick fix, the sound bite, and devalued long-form thought.

General cultural decline. Here Tarot is but one aspect of a far wider cultural trend toward dissolution. (See social media, the new age, post modernism, etc.)

Whatever the cause, my pessimism tends to incline me to see the problem less as the swinging of a pendulum and more as the downslope of a bell curve. Maybe Kris Hadar saw what was coming when he ditched the Tarot and went off chasing UFOs and shamans instead. It's sad. I miss vibrant forums. I am also pained to see some wonderful high-end material being relatively neglected. (For example, traditionaltarot.wordpress.com, a compendium of seminal and ground-breaking TdM thought. Check out the index for an idea of its treasures.)

For a bit over four decades, I've maintained that one of my life goals was to help bring tarot out of the backroom amidst the various labels of "occult", "witchcraft", and "devil worship" to name a few) and into the mainstream where people will consult their daily card(s) as they might their horoscope from either the newspaper (then) or their daily messenger. In that, I'm going to say that we have succeeded.

So is it a case of be careful what you wish for?

I love your point about target-oriented goals vs speculative conversation! That really nails it. Speculation is so generative and rich and I find so many ideas there. And a finite object such as a blog post or book essay is very different as you say. I think people are scared of publishing ideas they could rather sell, sometimes. I wonder if people feel kind of pressured to produce finite objects to prove to themselves that they're successful and worthy.

[trzes]

I think that “the tarotforum”, where all these good talks happened once, and which seems to be still the reference for everything that happens now, was pretty much a singularity. For the first time thousands of tarot lovers could get in touch easily, thanks to the internet, and they made heavy use of that chance.

However, people only will be willing to discuss a certain subject such and so many times, before it gets boring or annoying, or all questions are settled, or you can’t bear the stress of heated fights about it any longer. And as most of the tarot people have already been online, not so many new people could join in, bringing fresh energy, new ideas and viewpoints, and enthusiasm, just to discuss for the 25th time how tarot works on an intuitive level, or not.

Plus (as devin has already hinted at), the whole internet, the facebook-twitter-insta-tictoc-whatsapp-snapchat-complex started causing a collective form of ADHD recently. To many quick attention sucking bits and pieces, no need to stay for longer than a minute with anything.

As for my Mamluk deck I noticed how much easier it is, to send around photos, plus a couple of smileys. You get way more response, than for, say, a pdf discussing why the original Mamluk pattern had four instead of three court cards per suit back then.

In my book both the perceived over-commercialisation, as well as the toxic atmosphere people have stated here, are consequences of this collective internet-ADHD. Why would I waste time for real communication when all that people take in are photos, they look at for half a second? And why get involved in a tricky discussion that might upset people, when the caravan passes after a few sentences anyway? Sadly, the latter is likely to leave unfair attacks unanswered.

It’s up to us ourselves to take our time, and to get involved, and to dive deeper into things. Time most of us don’t have, as BlueToy has stated correctly. Still, I do not believe in a general decline of culture. But We need to become more skilled in dealing with this seduction machine that the second generation of the internet has become, in limiting it’s influence.

P. S.: And let’s not forget, there had been very hostile debates on “the tarotforum” as well. The only difference was: You were hardly ever alone, there was a good chance people would defend you. And although the forum was rather strictly moderated, a simple viewpoint as such was never sanctioned. But you needed the power to stand up against the crowd. I remember several times when I couldn’t sleep at night, continuing the fights from the forum in my head.

[devin]

This is such an interesting thread.

I love your point about target-oriented goals vs speculative conversation! That really nails it. Speculation is so generative and rich and I find so many ideas there. And a finite object such as a blog post or book essay is very different as you say. I think people are scared of publishing ideas they could rather sell, sometimes. I wonder if people feel kind of pressured to produce finite objects to prove to themselves that they're successful and worthy.

Yes. I remember reading about a study in which monkeys were provided with paints and paper. They gaily set about being creative and enjoying themselves. This continued until the researchers started handing out rewards for paintings. Soon the simian Picassos were doing only the amount of work needed to receive the reward.

That said, I don't want to be too down on commercialization. I reckon part of why 20th century American culture was so damn good (and took over the world) lies in its exquisite balancing of commercial interest and talent/creativity. For one thing, keeping an eye on your audience can certainly mitigate against artistic self indulgence, etc.

Still, I do not believe in a general decline of culture.

I did say I was a pessimist. Yet, it's worth remembering that esotericism flourishes in times of cultural crisis (think here of pre-revolutionary France and Russia). Now consider the fact that #tarot has 6.3 billion views on TiKTok. (Repent!)

It’s up to us ourselves to take our time, and to get involved, and to dive deeper into things.

After poo-pooing the role of Tarot 'personalities', I now wonder if, for the sake of reinvigoration, the Tarot might not need another great renovator in the mould of Paul Marteau, Tchalai Unger, Arthur Edward Waite, Greer, or Jodorowsky.

Of course the problem isn't limited to Tarot. Most forums are as dead as a dodo these days.

[Joan Marie]

Of course the problem isn't limited to Tarot. Most forums are as dead as a dodo these days.

And yet this topic, as of this writing, has nearly 800 views already.

But I do take your point. All of them in fact. And everyone else's.
What a really dynamic discussion this is, and I daresay could only really be had on a wonky old online forum like this!

[reall]

Great topic as always!:) includes many points;

imo we would not be at this point without Stuart K legacy & other big publishers that seen potential here & great artists & authors that make popularization possible!:) so nothing wrong with *commercialization and consumerism as long as we recognize it and deal with it best we can!;)
personally i prefer to see plenty of deck creators & different options to choose from over not been able to buy single deck in my country 20yrs ago!x,x facepalm lol

imo nothing wrong with artist pro or hobby creating whatever art they wish for whatever reason!^^
& non artist may wish to do same simply to be able to use card img without need for license?
art preference is personal taste & all people are different it’s good to have plenty for everyone!;)
& if you don’t like something does not mean there aren't plenty people who do!:)

as collector (of many things:) term is seen negatively outside of collector community associated with clutter piles of books and decks & etc & recluse who not bother to go out or do nothing else!;) lol
but it’s hobby like anything else!:) & source of great joy & great way to relax as stress relief!^^
imo each deck is like mini gallery of 78paintings you can look & think about & each is unique and special in its own way & why people are drawn to it!;)
fact is you would get same judgement look if you are in your own room having great fun & mess painting or playing instruments while your neighbor try to sleep!^^lol
but if your hobby is gardening then just because it’s *useful real work association is something beautiful like flower garden & natural food etc like you are not messing with dirt pesticide insecticide bugs & potentially hazards plants whole day!;D lol
point is do what you like as long as you don’t bother anyone why should anyone bother to judge your way of life & fun?^^ & as long as it don’t interfere with your other things!^^ (I don’t number my decks just say as long as my cabinet holds im Ok!^^) lol

also it’s tricky for deck or content creators ( btw i don’t see nothing wrong with term? as there are plenty i watch on insta & anything we post IS promotion (nothing wrong with that!;)
but some people are more selfconcious and sensitive and prefer not to step on anyone toes esp as everyone is on their edge & ready to flip any sec & you do not want to cause or deal with drama!;)) \o/
personally i don’t even bother with promotion (much) as it never worked for me & use my official webs to post news & updates & other content knowing people can follow if they like & no one will kick me out & delete my post when they decide it’s not to their liking!;)
& fact is with our fast life & *extra mortality risk everyone is more aware of our own expiration date & prefer to spend time where its more needed/appreciated as there is not hours in a day to fit all hats you need to wear (esp selfpublished one man band!;) lol & you don’t need to be working mom with 2jobs & 3kids to not make it all!:) im retired & no kids & still barely make it!:) fact is some people need Much more time to do anything, sadly im one of them, for my mental health it’s good start to recognize fact and deal with it accordingly starting with reducing my time on forum esp as i feel there is plenty of content creators there that are better at explaining things than i & google is mother of all answers & what most people are used to check first instead of creating acc & login to forum to ask question esp as those often seem hostile to new members!(: imo this forum is only place you can post unfiltered & not get jumped for it!;) btw maybe something like quick log as guest will help people feel more easy to log & post?:)

after our old AT forum went down we scattered everywhere & it’s hard to get that old community feeling back esp with my friend quoted *tiktok attention span!^^ where we are so used to quick glance scroll & barely bother to like or comment anymore!^^;)

also there is plenty tarot groups on fb with good topics & resources i think most people prefer to post for convenience sake?:)

only reason im posting here now bc im uploading lots of files & have time to kill by actually stooping to read & think & write something back!;)

i still visit to check whats going on just don’t feel like my post would contribute much!;) lol

p.s JM Luv your ideas about what we can do to encourage discussion! Make it Meme so we can share on social network!^^lol

@jobarghest you are on to something with anxiety+hurry think our whole post 2020 life is based on that to promote consumerism aka buy now as you may not be able to do so tomorrow?:) lol

@trzes perfect sum of half sec insta ADHD!;D lol

@devin monkey experiment is interesting & dead as dodo is hilarious but not exactly correct as i remember when i was young & discovered internet forum *cough* 20yrs ago*cough* & starting topics like: ”are forum goint to extinction?” and it’s same today!xD -AT big loss for Tarot community (wish someone someday restore it!;) it was not much better only difference is fast internet & tiktok insta that promote fast scroll & communicate by like!;) so forum will continue to live on *like roach not even nuclear apocalypse can change that!;)
but form is always changing,,, such all in life is,,!;)

p.p.s i seriously hope it evolves to my dream platform with deck creators shops and forum serious topics all in one place!^^ like if ebay & insta got baby and rise it retro gender neutral (aka liberal & open to all pov!^^ No Cancel Culture & No pirates!:)

[devin]

DELETED. Wrote something when I was in a bad mood. Now I regret it.

[jarstudionyc]

Dear everyone in this thread,

Thank you so much for sharing all of this and creating such an insightful discussion. Ironically, I stumbled upon this thread while doing marketing research for my upcoming deck, and then instantly joined the forum because I was so refreshed by the conversation.

As a Tarot artist -- er, well, just an artist in general -- I find the business side of things incredibly challenging and skin-crawly. Truly, I can't self-promote without feeling like some sort of hustler. And yet... no one else will do it for me. I try to inspire conversations on my social media pages, asking people to share their thoughts on the art and what they see in the cards. Often, there is super interesting feedback, which I live for. But, on occasion, people get offended or have "dissonance" with something -- their word, not mine -- which I am learning to roll with. I wish the discussions could be more thoughtful, in-depth, and less knee-jerk reactionary.

Will bookmark this thread. Looking forward to more!

-John

[trzes]

I remember reading about a study in which monkeys were provided with paints and paper. They gaily set about being creative and enjoying themselves. This continued until the researchers started handing out rewards for paintings. Soon the simian Picassos were doing only the amount of work needed to receive the reward.

ROTFL! Too bad we don't descend from guinea pigs. Well, at least the study proofs that the open source community for example isn't a bunch of monkeys.

But seriously, isn't the reward for creating tarot decks so far away and so uncertain that we, even we were those monkeys from the study, wouldn't really be tempted to limit our creativity? I wouldn't deny that effect for other fields though (like the notorious tictoc).

I find the business side of art rather awkward too. Still, customers have to be found, decks have to be printed, etc. Without the business side thousands of beautiful tarot decks would have never become available to all the tarot enthusiasts all over the world. And seeing images of a deck online is not the same as holding a physical deck in my hands. At least this is true for me.

[Debbiem]

Great topic as always!:) includes many points;



as collector (of many things:) term is seen negatively outside of collector community associated with clutter piles of books and decks & etc & recluse who not bother to go out or do nothing else!;) lol
but it’s hobby like anything else!:) & source of great joy & great way to relax as stress relief!^^
imo each deck is like mini gallery of 78paintings you can look & think about & each is unique and special in its own way & why people are drawn to it!;)
fact is you would get same judgement look if you are in your own room having great fun & mess painting or playing instruments while your neighbor try to sleep!^^lol

I just joined this forum. I saw this thread mentioned on Youtube by a tarot youtuber who mentioned Benebell's twitter post and I had to check it out further. I love what reall said about collecting tarot decks. I just had this conversation with my husband when I got another package of tarot decks in the mail. he said "when is enough enough." It bothered me. It hurt my feelings. I felt criticized. I wrote him a note before I left for work the other day "Honey, Tarot is my spiritual practice and connecting with a Higher Power, Higher Self, Divine Self, Soul. I love what it brings to my life. It elevates my life as you do (heart symbol)." He said, all he meant was I have so many already in my library where am I going to put them. He thought I might be trying to fill a whole. No, the art, the various images move me, they make me feel something when I look at the ones that resonate and touch my soul. I love comparing different decks and study them. If I do a reading for myself, it sits on my table for days, sometimes weeks while I study the hidden nuances and deeper meaning that just off the cuff.

I too must say that I find it difficult to have in-depth tarot conversations. People seem to not want to read long posts. I don't know why it is. I have a very small (4 people) Tarot Book study group where we study different books from cover to cover. Me and my friend started this group for free as so many online courses costs a lot of money, but going in depth in some more in-depth books is kind of out of the questions, i.e. Origins of the Tarot, Dai Leon, The Doctrine of High Magic Eliphas Levi, Regardie, Chic & Sandra Cicero, Garath Knight, etc. some of the old occultists. It's too much for some. I've wanted to study Meditations on the Tarot and one tarotist started a free study of it online, (sorry can't remember his name off hand) many scholars, priests, professionals etc joined the group and I thought "how exciting this is going to be", but not one participated and he shut it down. I was saddened by this.

I don't get the cruelty of some people. You'd think in this genre, it wouldn't be there. That we are beyond that.

Amazing thread and I am thoroughly enjoying the discussion of same.

Debbiem

[Debbiem]

Dear everyone in this thread,

Thank you so much for sharing all of this and creating such an insightful discussion. Ironically, I stumbled upon this thread while doing marketing research for my upcoming deck, and then instantly joined the forum because I was so refreshed by the conversation.

As a Tarot artist -- er, well, just an artist in general -- I find the business side of things incredibly challenging and skin-crawly. Truly, I can't self-promote without feeling like some sort of hustler. And yet... no one else will do it for me. I try to inspire conversations on my social media pages, asking people to share their thoughts on the art and what they see in the cards. Often, there is super interesting feedback, which I live for. But, on occasion, people get offended or have "dissonance" with something -- their word, not mine -- which I am learning to roll with. I wish the discussions could be more thoughtful, in-depth, and less knee-jerk reactionary.

Will bookmark this thread. Looking forward to more!

-John

Hi John,

I'm one of the ones that purchased your beautiful deck on kickstarter. I can't wait to receive it. I love nature and your is inspiring.

Debbiem

[jarstudionyc]

Thank you for the support!

Also, the way you describe your spiritual connection to your decks and the way you meditate with them is really beautiful. I feel honored for my artwork to be included in your collection!

So much of Tarot these days tends toward trendiness and aesthetic. You don't often find in-depth discussions about the artwork or the spiritual practice of interpreting the cards. One podcast and social media account I am loving right now is "In Search of Tarot" by Nick Kepley. They interviewed me about my deck and have a wide range of Tarot artists/guests who deep-dive into the cards and what they mean to them. Absolutely worth a listen! Goes beyond superficial "Tarot talk."