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what is the sound of one hand laughing?

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chiscotheque
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what is the sound of one hand laughing?

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Question: If thinking is a form of translation, what can we call the language we are translating from?

Deck: The Charles Dickens Tarot

Card: The Devil XV Poverty (featuring Oliver Twist & Fagin, Ignorance & Want)
15 devil poverty.jpg

Answer: The over-riding theme of this card is Poverty - that which we lack. As Christ said, "the poor you will always have with you" and as Oliver Twist asked, "Please, sir, can I have some more?" This idea is underscored by the orphans of humanity, Ignorance & Want, sheltered by the Spirit Yet To Come from A Christmas Carol. Ignorance & Want signify both Man's incompletion and his yearning to fill the void. If the language we are translating from is poverty, how much more poor is the language of words we translate that language into? Like Oliver - who, as his name suggests, hungers to live and is himself the opposite of evil - the little voice in our head may be thin gruel, but we are starving and want some more.

The language we use to translate the original is an astounding tool. Like the Victorian Era itself, language creates architectural wonders, solves physical riddles, facilitates action and, indeed, entertains an entire empire. Yet it also harbours a corrupt structure and feeds off a misused underclass. Oliver and Fagin are simply two such cogs in the Wheel hell-bent on rolling down its rut. It's interesting, here, that Fagin is Jewish, insofar as Hebrew (along with its fellow Canaanite languages) is the forefather of our written alphabet.

Along with the Hebrew God came its Devil, Satan, the fallen angel, the light bringer, the morning star. An angel is a divine being who brings man's experience to God and God's to man. The greek concept was called daimon - a divider and provider of fortune - from which we get our word demon. Originally, a daimon was a personal tutelary deity, akin to our guardian angel. Socrates talks of his own daemon who whispered into his inner ear, telling him when he was wrong but not telling him how. Christianity divided this original notion - akin to intuition, inspiration, conscience, and second sight - into the cut-and-dried dualism of shoulder angels: one good, one bad. Society similarly categorizes its creations into simplified scapegoats of its own conscience, here personified by innocent Oliver and nefarious Fagin.

Just as one's inner language is mercurial, it is akin to the Roman god Mercury, the keeper of boundaries and bridge between the upper and lower worlds - Man and God. He is the divine incarnation of commerce, communication, facility, fortune, and travel, but at the same time is the god of limitation, trickery, and thieves. At death, he ushers the human soul to the underworld. In this way, the proto-linguistic water bubbling from the divine well-spring can taste both bitter and sweet. Many fear it, proceeding as it does from the unknown, the unseen, the subconscious. Many prefer to defer from this language to a more concrete language, man-made and lit by a sun that never sets. Not only can much be accidentally lost in translation, but much can be intentionally lost - taken from Peter to give to Paul. Using language to convey the nature of our inquiry, the ineffable, is to actively participate in this loss. As with the spiritual significance of Adam giving names to the animals, our subject - the ever-green proto-language - must be deduced and intuited in counter-point to language, the Ego, and Adam's modus, which is to divide and conquer. Here, on The Devil card, the spirit - or daimon in the rough - has her face covered, not ironically by a book. As God told Moses, "No man can see my face and live" yet Moses saw God's face and did not die - what gives? God knows, but it appears to be bound up with the notion that the fulness of the divine must remain unspoken. This thing, then, which I cannot answer let alone answer for, dare i say unifies and liberates.



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dodalisque
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Re: what is the sound of one hand laughing?

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chiscotheque wrote: 20 Apr 2020, 17:10 Answer: The over-riding theme of this card is Poverty - that which we lack.
So it's actually a very good card to pull for this very abstract question. Language is a sort of poverty compared to the emotional essence - is that the right word? - the reality? - of what it is trying to express. Language is metaphorical of experience rather than experience itself. So language is second-hand, like Oliver's and Fagin's clothes. Cool, that book held up in front of the face of the female daimon. Language is actually obscuring the face of this figure, and preventing her from seeing. She doesn't seem very demonic for a Devil card. Is this you taking off in the opposite direction to the RWS, having a beneficent figure at the centre rather than a devil? She seems rather to be protecting the two babies from the ignorance and want that have ruined the lives of Fagin and Oliver. Or is she about to push those innocent babes out into the world of poverty? She seems more like the blinded spirit of compassion. Or a compassion that we are blinded too. Has our society forgotten the face of compassion. Is it our forgetfulness of our requirement to nurture that creates poverty and want, and which is Devilish? Is this card pointing the finger at us and blaming us for creating poverty and want through our own blindness. Or am I reading the card wrong? Bringing it back to the question itself, I suppose the beautiful female face of the daimon herself symbolises the truth behind language. Transcendent beauty is the language we are translating from into words in our spoken language.
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Re: what is the sound of one hand laughing?

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dodalisque wrote: 05 May 2020, 01:37 Language is a sort of poverty compared to the emotional essence - is that the right word? - the reality? - of what it is trying to express. Language is metaphorical of experience rather than experience itself. So language is second-hand, like Oliver's and Fagin's clothes.
as hardwired into the question, language is a translation - it is an organized set of symbols arranged to indicate a reality. the Gnostics, for instance, viewed the universe as a series of degradations - an idea as old as the hills. the first emanation from god was a knocked-down version, and the emanation from that was a further substandard chip off the old block, etc etc, until we get down to the earthly domain most of us live in. language is similar - it is a world all its own, which one can inhabit like Oliver and Fagin do Dickensian London, but it's a pale shadow on the cave wall of the actual world.
...that book held up in front of the face of the female daimon. Language is actually obscuring the face of this figure, and preventing her from seeing.


language is a tool; it can unite and it can divide. the devil serves a similar function, being the one which divides man from god and himself, but also the light bearer, the other side of the same coin, the darkness through which the light can shine, giving light its purpose. as i alluded to, written language is the purview of the left side of the brain - the male, outward-moving, Emperor side. in those societies in which the alphabet and literacy developed, the balance of power between men and women shifted to the male, a shift we have experienced for centuries now, accounting for much in the way of science, invention, colonization, etc., but also much carnage, fragmentation, psychic strain, cruelty, and ecological destruction.
She doesn't seem very demonic for a Devil card. Is this you taking off in the opposite direction to the RWS, having a beneficent figure at the centre rather than a devil? She seems rather to be protecting the two babies from the ignorance and want that have ruined the lives of Fagin and Oliver. Or is she about to push those innocent babes out into the world of poverty? She seems more like the blinded spirit of compassion. Or a compassion that we are blinded to.


the devil comes in many forms - one of the most common forms "he" takes is that of a young girl. what is good or bad - a monster or a girl - is something we ascribe. similarly, as suggested in A Christmas Carol, what happens to the children Ignorance and Want is up to us, hence your "compassion we are blinded to" is more to the point. the devil has no one face, he is legion. he is the dark - blindness; if we could see his face, it would be our face - each of us. like language itself, the book here is a mirror.
Bringing it back to the question itself, I suppose the beautiful female face of the daimon herself symbolises the truth behind language. Transcendent beauty is the language we are translating from into words in our spoken language.
arguably, before the alphabet, there were many gods and they were both good and bad- and neither. with the categorization and quantification of language came one god and the strict demarcation of good and evil. is truth beauty and beauty truth? that transcendence which we transcribe, can't it be neither good nor bad, since thinking makes it so? after all, like the layers of a gnostic onion, it's probably just a translation itself.

since we're here, isn't monotheism a malapropism, at least a de facto one? sure, there's arguably only one "god", but there's a whole lot of other junk out there - quintessential dust - which surely someone is accountable for? if in the beginning was god, he's really let his averages slip. wouldn't it be much closer to the truth, as paradoxical as it sounds, to say that a concept closer to true monotheism is pantheism? one god, in everything?


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Re: what is the sound of one hand laughing?

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chiscotheque wrote: 06 May 2020, 17:28 language is a tool; it can unite and it can divide. the devil serves a similar function, being the one which divides man from god and himself, but also the light bearer, the other side of the same coin, the darkness through which the light can shine, giving light its purpose.


"There ain't no dark 'til somethin' shines" - Townes van Zandt from "Rex's Blues". I know it's not exactly the point you are making, but it's a nice line. And it is Townes.
chiscotheque wrote: 06 May 2020, 17:28 arguably, before the alphabet, there were many gods and they were both good and bad- and neither.
Ah, OK, I get the concept now. Without language there is no reality for us. That's why "In the beginning was the Word." We do not have self-consciousness without language, or any notions of Good and Evil. Or we have the same amount of self-consciousness as snake or a dog. Maybe a dog is a bad example. Like birds they have equivalent sounds and behaviors to constitute a language. Maybe snakes communicate somehow. Do animals have self-consciousness? That old question. Do animals have souls? Even so, dogs and snakes and birds still know what is for them a pleasurable experience or an unpleasant experience. Do all notions of Good and Evil derive from that? Is human language just elaborate icing on a biological cake? (Sounds delicious, doesn't it.)
chiscotheque wrote: 06 May 2020, 17:28 since we're here, isn't monotheism a malapropism, at least a de facto one? sure, there's arguably only one "god", but there's a whole lot of other junk out there - quintessential dust - which surely someone is accountable for? if in the beginning was god, he's really let his averages slip. wouldn't it be much closer to the truth, as paradoxical as it sounds, to say that a concept closer to true monotheism is pantheism? one god, in everything?
I cheated and asked Google "What is the difference between monotheism, polytheism and pantheism?" and got this:
Pantheism is the belief God and the universe can be equated; that God is the universe. ... Where polytheism differs from both monotheism (a singular God) and pantheism however is that in polytheism one adheres to a multitude of gods.

And then I asked "What is the difference between monotheism and pantheism?" and got this:
Monotheism is a belief in an entity called God, and that there is only one God. Pantheism is a belief that we are parts of God, in Spinoza's words: “God is the word we use to express the unity of everything.” There's a lot of different kinds of pantheism, however.

I don't feel much the wiser after looking at those Google definitions. Is the difference between monotheism and pantheism an anthropological rather than a philosophical one? Do polytheistic cultures have a No.1 deity at the top of the spiritual food chain or do they dispense completely with the hierarchical idea of a chief God lording it over lesser gods and spirit forms? Or even that monotheistic God lurking in the background in a non-interventional role. Of course that's why religions have 3 person godheads - Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva, etc. That way the same God can be interventional and non-interventional at the same time. Were the Greeks and Romans monotheistic or polytheistic? They have lots of different god and goddesses, but Zeus is still the head honcho. I associate polytheism with primitive tribes, but I kinda like it. Every-little-thing has it's own vibe and spirit. Very democratic, even anarchic in a spiritual sense. Is that the same thing as Primordial Chaos? Why do we feel the need for a ruling deity. Is that deity just the Human Ego writ large? William Blake's Nobodaddy sort of fits that description. I hope you can make more sense of what I'm talking about than I can. But, yes, I would say that monotheism and pantheism seem to be the same thing.
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Re: what is the sound of one hand laughing?

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dodalisque wrote: 08 May 2020, 00:14
I don't feel much the wiser after looking at those Google definitions. Is the difference between monotheism and pantheism an anthropological rather than a philosophical one? Do polytheistic cultures have a No.1 deity at the top of the spiritual food chain or do they dispense completely with the hierarchical idea of a chief God lording it over lesser gods and spirit forms? Or even that monotheistic God lurking in the background in a non-interventional role. Of course that's why religions have 3 person godheads - Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva, etc. That way the same God can be interventional and non-interventional at the same time. Were the Greeks and Romans monotheistic or polytheistic? They have lots of different god and goddesses, but Zeus is still the head honcho. I associate polytheism with primitive tribes, but I kinda like it. Every-little-thing has it's own vibe and spirit. Very democratic, even anarchic in a spiritual sense. Is that the same thing as Primordial Chaos? Why do we feel the need for a ruling deity. Is that deity just the Human Ego writ large? William Blake's Nobodaddy sort of fits that description. I hope you can make more sense of what I'm talking about than I can. But, yes, I would say that monotheism and pantheism seem to be the same thing.
yes, arguably all theisms are at core anthropological - the human ego writ large. i think we feel the need for a ruling diety because of what Nietszche called the will to power, which could otherwise be called the life force - it's the MO of subjective living beings. nobodaddy, indeed: we have met the enemy and he is ours. this is the gordian knot or cleft stick of good and evil, god and the devil - the one needs the other, like a shell game its shill. the incredibly "successful" fool's errand of trying to divide the world into one or the other is a form of rationalism, science, and god-hood and devil-hood itself.

take Hinduism - the average Indian believes there are many gods, and all have varying values important in their way, and what's important for said Indian is this big picture as well as the small personal picture - that is, the particular god said Indian feels a special and intimate bond with. this is what the panoply of gods afford; catholicism similarly has saints. but the core teaching of Hinduism makes clear that the panoply of gods are in actuality the many manifestations of the one and only god. in short (and the paradox i was getting at): the attempt to consolidate or pinpoint or simply to state irrefutably the monotheistic oneness of god leads to division, plurality, and divisiveness. like language itself, rationalism, the West, absolutism, etc. - it divides and conquers. Conversely, when god exists (as Spinoza argued) in all manner & in all matter, then this "pantheistic" multiplicity and hence god attains - or should i say simply is - oneness.


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Re: what is the sound of one hand laughing?

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chiscotheque wrote: 11 May 2020, 15:50 take Hinduism - the average Indian believes there are many gods, and all have varying values important in their way, and what's important for said Indian is this big picture as well as the small personal picture - that is, the particular god said Indian feels a special and intimate bond with. this is what the panoply of gods afford; catholicism similarly has saints. but the core teaching of Hinduism makes clear that the panoply of gods are in actuality the many manifestations of the one and only god.
The BIG monotheistic God is so unimaginably vast that it seems natural to have imaginable small-scale intermediaries. Is there any basic difference between angels and leprechauns? Or between the Virgin Mary and UFOs?
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Re: what is the sound of one hand laughing?

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dodalisque wrote: 12 May 2020, 04:27 Is there any basic difference between angels and leprechauns?
only insofar as, with the former, they're less likely to drink you out of house and home.
Or between the Virgin Mary and UFOs?
only as different as Hogan's Heroes is from M*A*S*H
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Re: what is the sound of one hand laughing?

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chiscotheque wrote: 12 May 2020, 23:57 only insofar as, with the former, they're less likely to drink you out of house and home.
I suppose I could check on Google but, as a Catholic in recovery, do you know if there is a patron saint of alcohol?
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Re: what is the sound of one hand laughing?

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dodalisque wrote: 13 May 2020, 22:18 ... do you know if there is a patron saint of alcohol?
why stoop to a saint when Christ came eating and drinking? the ones i know of are St. Augustine for beer and St. Vincent for wine, but i stooped to google and found more: St. Nicholas, and the evangelist Luke for beer, and trust France to have their own personal saint for wine: St. Urban. there's also St. Monica as the patron saint of alcoholics and Augustine's long-suffering mother (although i liked him better as a lush). finally, there's St. Bibiana as the patron saint of hangovers - no one knows how she got the honour, but surely it's right there in her name: Bibi, Latin tor "to drink". i wonder if she's also the patron saint of the hangover movies?


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Re: what is the sound of one hand laughing?

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chiscotheque wrote: 14 May 2020, 00:48 finally, there's St. Bibiana as the patron saint of hangovers - no one knows how she got the honour
Cheers and amen.
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