Len: Joan Marie & Charlie Brown

[Joan Marie]

So Charlie Brown, whenever you are ready...

[Charlie Brown]

Alight. I'll think it over. In the meantime, why don't we just do one thread for the both of us. So I'll await your question as well.

Also, are we doing/do you want just questions about a book or similar or are "what if I had...instead" questions fair game?

[Joan Marie]

At the risk of sounding too loosey-goosey about it, I'm going to leave it up to you to decide.

You could for example, choose an obscure character and just express their situation as if it were your problem. Ask the question you would ask if you were that character in that situation.

The juicier you make the set-up and question, the more of a challenge my reading will be. Just put yourself in the place of the character.

I've never done this before, but I think it could be interesting. I hope so.

I'll try to pose my question in the next day or two.

[Charlie Brown]

I'm having a real difficulty coming up with a question for this and it's stressing me out. I have one thatis taken from a novel I recently read called The Sympathizer by Viet Thanh Nguyen. The one thing is that, in the book, he did act on the attraction, so I know "what happens." Is this part of the spirt/point of the exercise. TBH, I'm really not clear on what I should be doing.

Q: I'm extremely attracted to my boss's estranged daughter. What will happen if I act on this attraction?

A second, broader, question did occur to me. I was thinking about Dr. Who when the various companions decide to go along with the Doctor.

Q: How does one know when to take an unexpected, highly risky, opportunity?

[Joan Marie]

I think both of these questions are fine.

I'm also trying to wrap my head around fictive reading. It sounds good on paper but when you go to do it the point becomes a bit lost.

I don't think the idea is to find a "right" answer. It's more of just a way to give the reader a really juicy question to work with and do an actual reading for.
The reader is free to really dig in without any worries or shyness about what they might be seeing in the cards. The reading is real, only the question is fake.

Is there any value in that? I mean let's try it and see.

Afterward, the reading can be discussed strictly in terms of the interpretation since there won't be any "resonating.". It's strictly an exercise.

Sorry I haven't come up with a question yet. I really should have had one ready to kick this off, bUt I think your questions are fine. I had something in mind, I'll try to get it out.

[Charlie Brown]

Ok, well, whichever you prefer, although I guess the first one strikes me as a bit more in the spirit of it all.

[Joan Marie]

Here's my question:

My billionaire father has betrayed me. He led me to believe that I would be the one to take over the family business at his retirement, but it was a lie. I have a very real opportunity to turn the tables and steal his company out from under him in a hostile take-over. I think he deserves it and that I deserve to take the position I was promised, one way or another.

What will happen if I make this bold and irreversible move?

[Charlie Brown]

Since it's just for practice, I decided to try my hand at a 7-card line. I was surprised at how easily it read. I also ended up doing a couple of follow up shuffle and draws. Before the reading, I decided that the lady would be the querent significator, since you're a she. I was excited to see her drop at the top of the line. Here's the complete reading

So, you will be successful at taking over the company (lady-sun-bear) but will be estranged from your family when, at home, your treachery is revealed (house-snake-key-garden, plus second reading).

I wanted to confirm my reading of the latter part of the line. So I drew two cards to border the house (Whip + Tower). The strife leading to isolation.

So, is it worth it? Stork-Clouds-Clover. Maybe. By strict pos-neg, the draw leans yes, but for content these are some plenty ambiguous cards. Changing your position (stork) is going to cast a pall (clouds) over your joy. My personal take is that the gloom you'll feel over ostracizing yourself from your family is outweighed by the resentment that would otherwise fester.

ETA: I'm interested to observe that, twice, there are king-queen pairings on the table.

[Joan Marie]

When I read your interpretation I think, well of course, that's so obvious! It just seems so clear.
This question and this reading could be in a Lenormand textbook.

I was impressed that the house fell in the dead center of the 7 cards. That divided the spread in to two clear halves for me because the business and family are so tied together in this situation as to be inseparable yet they are separate.

That the lady card fell first was really cool. Lady-Sun-Bear was kind of perfect.
Although the interpretation might look different if the Bear was seen as the father (someone with power over the lady and using it). The Lady has her back to the the Sun, the Bear is facing it. Could it possibly be interpreted as I'm going to fail at the take-over and be exposed a treacherous traitor?

Reading the Whip-House-Tower as strife leading to isolation seems really clear.

I like this extra 3-cards to sort of get a summary.
The Stork could indicate a change of position in the family as in, not being seen the same way ever again. But maybe it is lucky that the deal failed and this change, although unpleasant, isn't as bad as how things would have gone if the deal went through. Maybe my running the family business would have been disastrous, a giant fail that ruined everything. In this case, the answer to the question, "Is it worth it? Would be no.

I must say I like your interpretation better. It's much neater.

[Charlie Brown]

I'm glad you liked it. I was interested by your thoughts but the reason that I looked at them the way that I did verses your ideas is rooted in my specific reading techniques. Those proverbial 'schools' if you will.

Although the interpretation might look different if the Bear was seen as the father (someone with power over the lady and using it).

I would never read bear as father. For this situation, I would say the man card would have to be the father. I'm not sure, but those who do think that bear can be a person, isn't it always a woman (mama bear)? I'm no super sure on that.

The Lady has her back to the the Sun, the Bear is facing it. Could it possibly be interpreted as I'm going to fail at the take-over and be exposed a treacherous traitor?

I don't read with facings.

I like this extra 3-cards to sort of get a summary.

Just to be clear, it wasn't meant to be a summary of the situation but a follow up question. Since it was yes/no I read it first and foremost on the positive-negative scale, which gave something of a yes. Having that weak yes already in hand guided how I looked at the other cards.
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[Joan Marie]

This is what I think is kind of cool about doing a fictive reading.

Normally we respond to a reading from a really subjective place, (i.e. does this sound like what I'm going through, does this reading make sense for ME?)

With a "fictive reading " (can we think of a better name for it though?) we can have discussions on the reading style and techniques. I think it can be a real helpful way to learn from each other.

[Charlie Brown]

I noticed something else that's interesting. The line starts with a pair of Aces and ends with a pair of eights: both Diamonds and Spades. Now, I'm not too hip to the playing card reading but—just from looking in the appendix to Andy's book— he says:

2 Aces = deception, 2 Eights = concord, diamonds = money, spades= relationships
So we get the theme deception vs concord, finances and relationships. That's on top of the King/Queen friction.

Neat.

[Joan Marie]

I went with your first question:

Q: I'm extremely attracted to my boss's estranged daughter. What will happen if I act on this attraction?

I also decided to try the 7 card reading and the extras like you did. I chose the Lord as your signifier and it did show up but not until the follow-up question.

So just a quick scan of that first line of seven cards does not look good at all but then weirdly ends with a sun.

I'll start with the middle card, The Scythe- a big red flag for a big mistake is at the center, the heart of this reading.

Birds-Crossroads-Snake: I think initially going down this path will start some trouble for you at work in the form of nasty gossip. The Snake makes me think that it will be the estranged daughter who is seen as the treacherous one.

The next 3 cards, Whip-Tree-Sun makes me think that despite some brutal treatment, you'll have a long (happy?) relationship with her.

I then added two more cards above and below the Scythe to verify that part and got that Cross (above) and Ship (below)

I see a fraught relationship with her but still one that makes you happy in some way.

My follow-up question was more about the boss because I didn't really see much about him in the first part. I asked, what will happen to your relationship to the boss.

That's when the Lord (man) turned up.
Man-Dog-Coffin

So I think the boss won't be angry or hold anything against you. He respects your loyalty to him and his daughter and maybe even pities you for getting yourself in this mess!

Okay, I have to admit, that was fun.

I have a kindle version of Andy's book and the stupid app won't open. I have to buy the real book.
What does he say about 2 Queens together (crossroads-snake) and 2 Jacks (Scythe-whip) ?

[Joan Marie]

I would never read bear as father. For this situation, I would say the man card would have to be the father. I'm not sure, but those who do think that bear can be a person, isn't it always a woman (mama bear)? I'm no super sure on that.

I tried the Bear out as the father because of the power he has over the son as head of the company and controller of the massive inheritance.

[Charlie Brown]

This is great. The reading actually follows what happens in the book pretty closely if you look at the cards as talking about his journey rather than the relationship, which, in the book, is pretty non-existant.

So just a quick scan of that first line of seven cards does not look good at all but then weirdly ends with a sun.

Yes. Basically, the fall out from the affair leads him into terrible places (a North Vietnamese reeducation camp) but this, ultimately, is what allows him to achieve his long-term overarching goal.

I'll start with the middle card, The Scythe- a big red flag for a big mistake is at the center, the heart of this reading.

Yes. Anything that leads you into a two year stint of reeducation should have a big red flag. Ironically, I imagine the camp itself also had a big red flag.

The next 3 cards, Whip-Tree-Sun makes me think that despite some brutal treatment, you'll have a long (happy?) relationship with her. I then added two more cards above and below the Scythe to verify that part and got that Cross (above) and Ship (below)

Well, as I said, there was brutal treatment. The Sun, I think, is the long term goal rather than the relationship. For ship, there was a long journey back to Asia that, as you know, ended up a somewhere in the Mekong Delta.

Man-Dog-Coffin

So I think the boss won't be angry or hold anything against you. He respects your loyalty to him and his daughter and maybe even pities you for getting yourself in this mess!

Talking technique, I'm confused at your logic here. I would see the coffin as a hard end. That loyalty/friendship is dead.

What does he say about 2 Queens together (crossroads-snake) and 2 Jacks (Scythe-whip) ?

I only look at the playing cards when they're really marked. So, for example, a line of three kings in a 3x3. In my line, I only looked because of the combination that they were at each end of the line and of the same suits. I wouldn't read your pairs, which is not the same as saying that they shouldn't be read.

Andy says that two queens indicate "a female friend" and that two jacks are "disquiet in affairs (a warning that things might go bad)" Those are pretty apropos, actually.

[Joan Marie]

Man-Dog-Coffin

So I think the boss won't be angry or hold anything against you. He respects your loyalty to him and his daughter and maybe even pities you for getting yourself in this mess!

Talking technique, I'm confused at your logic here. I would see the coffin as a hard end. That loyalty/friendship is dead.

I can totally see that. And you're right, it's a logic thing. What I came up up with still makes sense to me. I see the man as trapped in a bad situation. That big loyal dog in the middle gives me a sense that his situation is pitiable.

What you say about a hard end doesn't exactly disagree with what I said, but we differ on the meaning of the dog. I think my reading was a little more tarot-y, sort of reading into the cards something that may or may not be there.

It's interesting. I have to think about it.

I have to admit I really enjoyed this exercise, and maybe I should save this for the debrief, but I found reading 7 cards easier than reading 3 or 5. It was also more engaging to me.

I also like the discussion of techniques.

I will save the rest of my comments for later.

And just by the way, I got my question/scenario from the TV series "Succession."

[dodalisque]

Since it was yes/no I read it first and foremost on the positive-negative scale, which gave something of a yes. Having that weak yes already in hand guided how I looked at the other cards.

Could you explain about the yes/no scale. I've noticed you use it before for a quick snapshot during a reading. I'm guessing it's just that most Len cards have predominantly either a pos or neg meaning, and a quick 3 card draw will tend to lean one way or the other? So it's a very loose, impressionistic indicator?

[Charlie Brown]

Yes. You answer Yes/No questions based on a Positive-Nagative scale. Each card is Positive, Neutral-Positive, Neutral, Neutral-Negative, or Negative. You could think of it as +2, +1, 0, -1, -2

[dodalisque]

Yes. You answer Yes/No questions based on a Positive-Nagative scale. Each card is Positive, Neutral-Positive, Neutral, Neutral-Negative, or Negative. You could think of it as +2, +1, 0, -1, -2

OK good, so could you talk a bit about the Significator. I noticed the Woman card was in the mix for JM's reading. Does that mean you pre-selected the Woman card and included it among the cards randomly drawn for the reading, then shuffled those 7 cards before laying them down? So 6 draws and one pre-select. The Significator is something I have never used, but I can see it would be very dramatically effective in a reading, placing the client in the middle of the action. I'm surprised that books about spreads don't talk about it more often. Without Significators I can see that it tends to make me assume that EVERY card in the reading is about the client or represents some aspect of his/her character, and this could be more limiting than using Significators. Do you have a preference for using Significators or not, or does it depend on the kind of question being asked?

[dodalisque]

This is great. The reading actually follows what happens in the book pretty closely if you look at the cards as talking about his journey rather than the relationship, which, in the book, is pretty non-existant.

Excellent stuff. I think for this type of fictive reading, perhaps the most interesting part is the "reveal" of details from the novel after the reading has been done. We suddenly appreciate aspects of the cards in relation to the question that we hadn't noticed. It's just like a genuine personal reading when at the end the client opens up and provides more details about their life situation that your tarot reading has miraculously divined in broad terms. In a fictive reading it's humorous rather than embarrassing if your educated guesses are way off. A wonderful way to build tarot skills and widen our sensitivity to the cards' potential range of association.

There are really two types of fictive reading:

1) Where the person setting the question knows the story but the reader doesn't. This is like the readings you do here with JM, and most nearly resembles the situation in a regular personal reading. To more nearly simulate the mood of a personal reading, the person asking the question might even pretend to BE an actual character in the novel who is coming to a tarot reader for advice.

2) Where both the client and reader are familiar with the story. This might happen, say, if a historical event or popular fairytale or TV show or Shakespeare play or one of Christ's parables was used to generate a question. You are doing a tarot reading about the future but both reader and client already know how the story turns out. This might not seem to be much of a challenge for a tarot or Lenormand card reader, but actually there is only a slight change of emphasis in the reading. The well-known story can be looked at from fresh angles, even collaboratively, suggesting previously unguessed at possibilities and motivations. It's an interesting exercise in this kind of reading to almost work backwards - looking at the solution first and then appreciating how the story is hidden and expressed in the imagery on the cards.

Knowing how hard most people struggle to generate questions from their own lives, I actually think fictive readings should be the primary mode of operation on an online forum, though it seems sacrilege to say it. People could ask to have personal questions answered if they have a particularly burning question on their mind, but as a monthly exercise I think the fictive idea deserves wider currency. A face-to-face reading for a stranger, which is what "real" tarot is designed for, has a completely different dynamic to one done online for a familiar acquaintance. So I'm really glad to see the fictive idea open up as part of the Lenormand group. But I think tarot cards are equally, if not more, effective for this kind of thing.

[Joan Marie]

Knowing how hard most people struggle to generate questions from their own lives, I actually think fictive readings should be the primary mode of operation on an online forum, though it seems sacrilege to say it. People could ask to have personal questions answered if they have a particularly burning question on their mind, but as a monthly exercise I think the fictive idea deserves wider currency. A face-to-face reading for a stranger, which is what "real" tarot is designed for, has a completely different dynamic to one done online for a familiar acquaintance. So I'm really glad to see the fictive idea open up as part of the Lenormand group. But I think tarot cards are equally, if not more, effective for this kind of thing.

I really agree with this.

It seems to me that reading exchanges sort of compete with the reading groups, like there is some redundancy there.
I'd like to experiment with taking the groups in another direction, more toward these kind of exercises, and let the reading exchanges expand more into the personal questions area.

I mean, not entirely, but I think we are starting to find that the fictive reading has a unique value and lends well to groups. It feels like instead of a bunch of "secret pairs" we're all kind of at the same party and we can read and comment on each other's results without worrying about the protocol of personal readings.

I can also say, for myself, doing a fictive made me much braver as a reader. I did a more challenging spread and really felt very uninhibited.

I'd like to work toward this. It's special and creative and I think it's something we could excel at here.

[Charlie Brown]

OK good, so could you talk a bit about the Significator.

I did not preselect any cards. Although there's a spread that's either referred to as "lost man" or "no layout" where you shuffle and then root through the deck until you find the significator. It becomes the center of a line of five and the two cards on either side are read as pairs. Either 2+4, 1+5 or 1+2, 4+5 depending on the reader.

In Lenormand, the Man or Woman card always represents either the querent themself (usually) or the subject of the reading. The other man or woman card represents either the spouse of the querent or another figure that's significant to the situation. In the case of this reading, I did not know the gender of the fictional querent, so I used female since Joan Marie posed the question.

There are certain other cards that traditionally function as extended significators. The Rider is used to represent a same sex lover of the man, Snake a same sex woman. Usually this is because of the playing card inserts. (kings, queens, etc.)