Sept TdM : Marigold reads for dodalisque

[Diana]

Hello dodalisque (waving from afar). I've been chosen by some kind of AI I think to read for you this month. And it suits me quite fine. Be warned, am still a bit puzzled about reading the cartomantic line because it seems to me that there is a contradiction in breathingsince72's explanation. Regardless, I'm happy to plough ahead. And que sera sera.

What would you like me to cover in this reading ? Any specific question ?

[Charlie Brown]

If something seems unclear or contradictory, perhaps I can help clarify. It was written quickly and wasn't meant to be a textbook. The history behind it is that a newer reader signed up for TdM group and then made up a three card spread with positions like card 2 = How X feels about the situation. I suppose that we were also trying to differentiate it from the kind of modern, no spread reading where people are developing elaborate psychological fantasias off of each card. My sense is that these lines are generally meant to be connected and concise but also shouldn't inhibit experienced readers from adding on, looking at regarding, etc. etc.

I think her definition is more about what not to do rather than trying to proscribe what you have to do.

And, also, you're an experienced TdM reader. I don't think you need to worry too much about restricting yourself.

[dodalisque]

Hi Marigold. I've been enjoying your interactions with chiscotheque in Plato's Cave. Like you, I don't have much experience of reading a cartomantic line with the TdM. It seems to be a technique associated more with Lenormand readings, encouraging a brief, haiku-like interpretation of the 3 or 5 or 7 or whatever-number cards, as if the images made up a single sentence or at least expressed a single idea. But I'm sure everyone will take the reading in a different direction. As CB says, I think it's mostly designed to get us away from our usual exhaustive analysis of symbols and microscopic attention to details.

So, a question. A month ago I sent a fancy written invitation to a friend and business partner to come to a large dinner party that my wife and I were organising. It was to be on a Friday evening in three weeks time.The main reason for the party was so that I could introduce my friend to some important clients. He confirmed his acceptance by phone, but then didn't show up on the night of the party. It caused a great deal of inconvenience and embarassment, and the potential clients felt rather insulted. But when I complained to my friend he became annoyed, claiming that I had told him the wrong date. He then sent me by email a copy of the original invitation showing the date of the party as the Saturday instead of the Friday. This was outrageous. He didn't realise that I still had a copy of the original invitation, so it was immediately obvious that he had altered the image to appear as though it had been my mistake. Should I call him on this or let the whole thing drop?

I'm not sure if this is a good question for the spread we have been assigned. Since this is an either/or question I suppose you could do two cartomantic lines to examine two possible outcomes. But I'm looking forward to reading whatever advice you can give.

[Charlie Brown]

Like you, I don't have much experience of reading a cartomantic line with the TdM. It seems to be a technique associated more with Lenormand readings, encouraging a brief, haiku-like interpretation of the 3 or 5 or 7 or whatever-number cards, as if the images made up a single sentence or at least expressed a single idea. But I'm sure everyone will take the reading in a different direction. As CB says, I think it's mostly designed to get us away from our usual exhaustive analysis of symbols and microscopic attention to details.

I think the notion of a single idea is key—that all of the cards are working together to answer the question. As far as being haiku-like or short, I think you're conflating the line itself with my style of reading. Details can be really important, but, for me, it's important to understand why a particular detail is important to an analysis.

[Diana]

I'm not sure if this is a good question for the spread we have been assigned. Since this is an either/or question I suppose you could do two cartomantic lines to examine two possible outcomes. But I'm looking forward to reading whatever advice you can give.

Hi. I reckon I can find a suitable way of phrasing the question. I'll give it some thought and maybe run through it with you first (or not). It's a very interesting reading to do with this cartomantic method because the story sounds almost like some kind of play being acted out on a stage. I can imagine that if it were a play, it could end up with a dead body in the library ! (only kidding). I have a feeling the reading may reflect this drama. We'll see.

However, I think you would be in need of a quick answer so you can settle this matter without delay. Trouble is I'm hugely hugely busy till next Wednesday and there's little chance that I'll be able to do till then. I hope that's okay. If you can't wait, then it would be better to give another question that is not so urgent.

[dodalisque]

However, I think you would be in need of a quick answer so you can settle this matter without delay. Trouble is I'm hugely hugely busy till next Wednesday and there's little chance that I'll be able to do till then. I hope that's okay. If you can't wait, then it would be better to give another question that is not so urgent.

I'm in no rush at all. Please take all the time you need.

[Diana]

So, a question. A month ago I sent a fancy written invitation to a friend and business partner to come to a large dinner party that my wife and I were organising. It was to be on a Friday evening in three weeks time.The main reason for the party was so that I could introduce my friend to some important clients. He confirmed his acceptance by phone, but then didn't show up on the night of the party. It caused a great deal of inconvenience and embarassment, and the potential clients felt rather insulted. But when I complained to my friend he became annoyed, claiming that I had told him the wrong date. He then sent me by email a copy of the original invitation showing the date of the party as the Saturday instead of the Friday. This was outrageous. He didn't realise that I still had a copy of the original invitation, so it was immediately obvious that he had altered the image to appear as though it had been my mistake. Should I call him on this or let the whole thing drop?

Hi dodalisque. Here’s your reading.

I’m using the Isis Tarot of Marseilles. http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/isis-marseille/

The question I asked is : What is the best course of action for dodalisque in this situation ? No positions. But I did ask for some kind of timeline, but nothing traditional like "past/present/future". I just said I wanted some indication of time.

I drew 3 cards. I was going to draw five, but changed my mind at the last second.

Nine of Swords.
Roy de Deniers
Ace of Wands

Now this is as clear as daylight. There’s hardly any need to elaborate, is there ? This reading therefore won’t be very long.

However, I actually found it quite difficult to do. Not because of the nature of the question nor the cards nor their interpretation, but because I felt like I was doing a completely different reading. I had to concentrate hard to focus on your question and not stray off. I’ll touch on this briefly at the end of this post.

I still don’t understand what a cartomantic reading is (lol). I understand it to be more of narrative form than a dissection, so I will tell a story.

As you asked the question, I assume that you’re the person represented by the Roy de Deniers. A most suitable card for the situation. The Tarot never ceases to amaze me. You’re actually represented in this reading in two different time frames. First in the past, with your new business opportunity in your lap, waiting for your friend and business partner who never turned up. Dressed up in your best clothes and all. At first you probably thought he was just late, but you’re starting to feel a bit uncomfortable.

But at the same time, you’re also in the present and you’re looking intently at the Ace of Batons which is situated in yet another time frame – the potential future. (I see the Tarot did respect my wish for a certain progression in time – it even gave us a bit of past and present and future although all sort of mixed up). You’re sort of wondering here whether you should get up and do something with this flaming Baton. “Do I act or do I just stay here sitting looking like an idiot?” There’s always a need for action when it comes to batons. Batons are an extrovert suit. Look at how it’s held ? With determination and power. It looks like it’s bursting into flames. Its strong light will surely vanquish the darkness (the ignorance, the not knowing) and chase any wild animals away.

Truth must prevail. The King must retain his authority. He needs to get hold of that Ace of Baton and yield it. Not to get the upper hand. But to clear the air.

In my snippets of Tarot folklore and knowledge, I have this quotation on the 9 of Swords : “This card indicates the passage from ignorance to knowledge.”

The Tarot is saying that you should go and clear the air and talk to your friend/business partner about this weird situation.

Now regarding the different reading that I couldn’t shake off that I mentioned further above, this one was sort of darker. It made me feel uneasy. It had something to do with power struggles, and envy, and things of this nature. But this time it was not you who was the King of Deniers, but the other party. I won’t elaborate further and I do hope that I haven’t spoken out of turn. But the feeling was so strong, I feel the need to mention it. If this is amiss, please tell me and I’ll edit my post accordingly.

[Charlie Brown]

Thinking of a recent signficator thread (did it branch off of this month's sign-up?) I'd say that this is a perfect example of why one might want to have predetermined significators for the major participants in the situation.

[Diana]

Thinking of a recent signficator thread (did it branch off of this month's sign-up?) I'd say that this is a perfect example of why one might want to have predetermined significators for the major participants in the situation.

Indeed. I'm extremely unfamiliar with significators. Maybe they're more popular than they were in the "olden" days.

But at the same time, if I'd had a predetermined significator, perhaps I would not have had that strong feeling of unease that rose when I saw the cards. The lack of significator in this particular reading allowed me to see it on two different levels. Same cards but two different stories. A bit like the "choose your own adventure" books that were so popular at one time. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choose_Your_Own_Adventure

[dodalisque]

Now regarding the different reading that I couldn’t shake off that I mentioned further above, this one was sort of darker. It made me feel uneasy. It had something to do with power struggles, and envy, and things of this nature. But this time it was not you who was the King of Deniers, but the other party. I won’t elaborate further and I do hope that I haven’t spoken out of turn. But the feeling was so strong, I feel the need to mention it. If this is amiss, please tell me and I’ll edit my post accordingly.

Thanks very much. Your reading of this cartomantic line is completely persuasive. Yes, isn't it amazing the way the tarot has a habit of delivering the best possible card to answer the question. I resemble that King of Coins a lot more than I'd like to admit. To me he seems to be looking wistfully at the flaming Ace of Wands. He wishes he had the guts to grab the thing and confront his friend over this ridiculous incident, but he'll probably stay sitting comfortably as though nothing had happened. He would have to put down his coin to grasp the Ace of Wands in his right hand. This sounds like surrendering peace and quiet and choosing conflict over a point of principle - not my style at all. But the reading suggests that maybe this is an occasion when perhaps I should act out of character and actually express my anger. The 9 of Wands is almost at the other end of the aggressiveness scale. It's a quite placid, sterile-looking card. The central Wand, instead of throwing off sparks like the rough Ace, is locked into place by the mesh of well-behaved, neatly arranged Wands around him.

Please don't worry about saying anything controversial. Your suggestion of re-interpreting the central King as representing my friend rather than me is fascinating. You're right that there does seem a lot of conflict in the air. Disrespect itself is a kind of power struggle. Without knowing more about the exact nature of our relationship it is difficult for you to be specific, but please let me know if you have any more thoughts about this. Maybe he was just desperately embarrassed to have missed the party and considered me too stupid to doubt his explanation. I'll probably give him the benefit of the doubt, but there is an element of darkness in all this. Subconsciously there seems to be an unspoken competition between even the closest friends. Maybe there more than anywhere.

By the way, I'm so glad you used the ISIS Tarot. I think it's one of the best. The colours are wonderful and there are some unique poetic touches on many of the cards. I don't get those bees though. What's that all about? There's one on the Strength card, and one of the Courts too I think. Clever the way his Page of Coins is slipping a coin into his left hand like the Le Bateleur. It suggests a link between those two cards that I hadn't considered before.

[dodalisque]

Thinking of a recent signficator thread (did it branch off of this month's sign-up?) I'd say that this is a perfect example of why one might want to have predetermined significators for the major participants in the situation.

You're such a stickler for precision. It can certainly prevent getting into a muddle. But would it be a cartomantic line if individual cards were allocated as significators? The looseness of the line is part of its attraction. On this occasion I think the wording of the question implies than my reactions rather than my friend's are the main subject, but intuitive speculation about other possibilities can sometimes find a place in the discussion.

[Charlie Brown]

. But would it be a cartomantic line if individual cards were allocated as significators?

Absolutely. If you were reading the line as a sentence, the 'word' would be something like "you" or "him."

For example, with your question, if the KoD were your antagonist's significator, I might read it as "impede (9 of Wands) his (KoD) power (Ace of Wands," which, in the context of your question, would mean that, yes, you should confront him.

That being said, for three cards, I'm probably more likely to do it just like Marigold did. Otherwise, I would search the deck for the significator. I certainly had no intention of critiquing her reading, I was just pointing out something I found to be of interest.

[dodalisque]

In my snippets of Tarot folklore and knowledge, I have this quotation on the 9 of Swords : “This card indicates the passage from ignorance to knowledge.”

I just noticed on the 9 of Wands that the central Wand doesn't pass all the way through the other wands. There is white space where it is supposed to enter and leave the central meeting place of the other wands. I'm not sure at all what this might mean, but some kind of breakage seems to have taken place. You call it the 9 of Swords, which is an easy mistake to make with those blades at the end of the wands. I'm not sure how much difference it makes to the reading. Do you have any quotations about the traditional meaning of the 9 of Wands? Something about "the one against the many" maybe, which is how the RWS interprets it?

[dodalisque]

. But would it be a cartomantic line if individual cards were allocated as significators?

Absolutely. If you were reading the line as a sentence, the 'word' would be something like "you" or "him."

For example, with your question, if the KoD were your antagonist's significator, I might read it as "impede (9 of Wands) his (KoD) power (Ace of Wands," which, in the context of your question, would mean that, yes, you should confront him.

That being said, for three cards, I'm probably more likely to do it just like Marigold did. Otherwise, I would search the deck for the significator. I certainly had no intention of critiquing her reading, I was just pointing out something I found to be of interest.

Well, you're right. I'm always looking for ways to go back to my loosey-goosey way of reading, but the results are invariably more surprising and interesting if I can force myself to stay absolutely true to the question and set rigid limits. It's like the way sticking to a set rhyme-scheme when you are writing a poem can concentrate your energies and force your mind to explore unfamiliar channels. But Marigold's reading worked for me.

[Diana]

You call it the 9 of Swords, which is an easy mistake to make with those blades at the end of the wands. I'm not sure how much difference it makes to the reading. Do you have any quotations about the traditional meaning of the 9 of Wands? Something about "the one against the many" maybe, which is how the RWS interprets it?

For crying in a bleeding bucket. I never saw that! How could I have made this mistake. And I was all concentrated and all. It's really weird. This whole reading is a bit strange actually. I like strange.

I'm not cross with myself... I take these strange occurrences as some kind of opportunity. But still, I know my cards for heavens sake.

I'd like to get back to this and to all the other stuff that has been written tomorrow. But before I log off for the night, I just want to say that you can't respond to him in anger. That's not what the Tarot is saying here. The Ace of Batons never ever acts in anger - with confidence and strength yes, but never ever ever in anger. That would be misreading this spread completely. A King or a Queen or a Knight may sometimes bash a lot with their sticks. Even a Page with a bump on the head, but not an Ace. Far too noble for that. And a King of Coins carrying an Ace of Batons is even nobler. It's not noble to get angry.

You know I said when I accepted to read for this question that it sounded like a theatre where someone may end up being murdered in the ball room (or the dining room I can't remember which room)? Don't start creating the drama yourself. Don't want to end up with any dead bodies or dead friendships!!

I'll give some thought about the 9 of Wands and get back here tomorrow. It won't change the advice of the Tarot re your actual question, i.e. to contact your friend about this. The 9 of Wands however does not change my feeling that there are some undercurrents going on. I'll sleep over this.

[Diana]

Here follows a few preliminary comments on your feedback.

He would have to put down his coin to grasp the Ace of Wands in his right hand. This sounds like surrendering peace and quiet and choosing conflict over a point of principle - not my style at all. But the reading suggests that maybe this is an occasion when perhaps I should act out of character and actually express my anger. The 9 of Wands is almost at the other end of the aggressiveness scale. It's a quite placid, sterile-looking card. The central Wand, instead of throwing off sparks like the rough Ace, is locked into place by the mesh of well-behaved, neatly arranged Wands around him.

Like I said in my previous post, the Ace of Wands doesn't act in anger because he's too noble for that. What the Ace of Wands is doing is just upholding his principles. There was a deliberate lie invented to cover something, it left you in a hugely uncomfortable position, you probably lost your business opportunity (no need to put the coin down by the way, it's already been put down. Which doesn't mean that it cannot be picked up again of course.) This goes against any decent set of principles and you're the victim. We're not talking here about a POINT of principle, but something much greater than that. Something must be redressed with that Ace. I reckon that that something is your honour.

Please don't worry about saying anything controversial. Your suggestion of re-interpreting the central King as representing my friend rather than me is fascinating. You're right that there does seem a lot of conflict in the air. Disrespect itself is a kind of power struggle. Without knowing more about the exact nature of our relationship it is difficult for you to be specific, but please let me know if you have any more thoughts about this. Maybe he was just desperately embarrassed to have missed the party and considered me too stupid to doubt his explanation. I'll probably give him the benefit of the doubt, but there is an element of darkness in all this. Subconsciously there seems to be an unspoken competition between even the closest friends. Maybe there more than anywhere.

I do have some more thoughts on this, particularly as we're not talking anymore about 9 Swords but 9 Batons. It's about what is behind all this, or rather UNDERNEATH. The Tarot was begging me I think to not overlook the dynamics that led up to this situation. But I need to take some quality time to get my thoughts together. (I've got a deadline for a big translation so my mind is pretty caught up with other stuff right now.) This will be done later today and I'll write a further post on this subject. I think it's important because the 9 of Batons only reinforces my unease.

By the way, I'm so glad you used the ISIS Tarot. I think it's one of the best. The colours are wonderful and there are some unique poetic touches on many of the cards. I don't get those bees though. What's that all about? There's one on the Strength card, and one of the Courts too I think. Clever the way his Page of Coins is slipping a coin into his left hand like the Le Bateleur. It suggests a link between those two cards that I hadn't considered before.

It's an incredibly beautiful deck. I'd forgotten I had it. It's brand new. Never been used before - you're the lucky recipient of its first usage. I've decided I'm going to use it now as my main deck. The revival of the colours is wonderful.

As to the bees, if you go to this link on Aeclectic, on page 1, kenji gives a great introduction to this deck. And on page 2, he gives an explanation of the bees. http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=156779&pp=10

[Diana]

I just noticed on the 9 of Wands that the central Wand doesn't pass all the way through the other wands. There is white space where it is supposed to enter and leave the central meeting place of the other wands. I'm not sure at all what this might mean, but some kind of breakage seems to have taken place. You call it the 9 of Swords, which is an easy mistake to make with those blades at the end of the wands. I'm not sure how much difference it makes to the reading. Do you have any quotations about the traditional meaning of the 9 of Wands? Something about "the one against the many" maybe, which is how the RWS interprets it?

dodalisque, I’m jotting down my thoughts here as they come. So I hope they won’t be too disjointed.

We’re getting now to the question that was probably fundamental to the reading. What’s going on behind the scenes ? The Tarot is no fool. She's a bit like the Papesse. She knows everything. She didn't think my question covered everything but she's a Magician too so she slipped in some messages for us.

Now if you take all the cards of the baton suit and observe them, you’ll see that this one is the only one that doesn’t have any vegetation on it. So is it just the middle of winter and we just have to wait for the right season for the leaves to grow again? Is it just part of a natural cycle? It would be tempting to think so, but there’s no indication in the other baton cards of seasons.

It could of course be that the 9 of Batons has now stored up all his energy and is ready to go on to the next big step, the granddad 10. This is what one reads in all sorts of blogs and books (most of them copy from each other, the blind frequently leading the blind). But maybe.. in certain specific readings perhaps. Sounds very new agey. Anyway I don’t think that’s the case here.

The 9 of Batons is in a class of his own. He’s withdrawn for a while from his tribe – retreated in a way. He's no longer the extrovert that is such in integral part of the suit's nature. Is your friend wanting to withdraw from something and he doesn’t know how to tell you… or perhaps, he doesn’t yet know himself exactly. His falsehood seems to indicate that he’s not very confident in himself. Falsehoods are not white lies. They are more serious than that. They are usually used to cover up something.

Now of course, the 9 can be associated with the Hermit. He too has withdrawn for a while. There is that central baton that fasten the others well together – it looks like a very fine baton – an honest and true one. Maybe it’s the Hermit’s.

So I’m thinking that it is this central baton that aspires to become the Ace of Batons. Before that you have to get the 10. Now there’s the rub. The 10 is related to the Wheel of Fortune, and if you drag old musty stuff with you and carry it around in a metaphorical suitcase, why then your tomorrows will be no better than your yesterdays. I reckon you need to get to know what's going on in the mind of your friend/partner. The Ace of Batons at the end of this reading is a sure sign of success. I mean, just LOOK at it! I wonder whose hand is holding it - tarotically speaking I mean - although it is obvious that in this reading it is YOU who are holding it. Pretty triumphantly too.

[dodalisque]

Now of course, the 9 can be associated with the Hermit. He too has withdrawn for a while. There is that central baton that fasten the others well together – it looks like a very fine baton – an honest and true one. Maybe it’s the Hermit’s.

So I’m thinking that it is this central baton that aspires to become the Ace of Batons. Before that you have to get the 10. Now there’s the rub. The 10 is related to the Wheel of Fortune, and if you drag old musty stuff with you and carry it around in a metaphorical suitcase, why then your tomorrows will be no better than your yesterdays. I reckon you need to get to know what's going on in the mind of your friend/partner. The Ace of Batons at the end of this reading is a sure sign of success. I mean, just LOOK at it! I wonder whose hand is holding it - tarotically speaking I mean - although it is obvious that in this reading it is YOU who are holding it. Pretty triumphantly too.

Thank you for putting so much energy into this reading. The link between the suit of Wands and the Hermit is something I have never considered before. The desolate vegetationless quality that you mention on the 9 Batons seems to resonate with the Hermit card. Solitude is certainly a factor here. Perhaps I'm frightened of losing his friendship by embarrassing him over such a trivial matter, if it is actually trivial and not something more sinister. Perhaps within a friendship I don't want the experience of feeling powerful. I still am undecided about what to do, but if anything like it happens again I will certainly call him on it, in private at least. There's quite a bit to meditate on here, about my friend's psychology but about my own too.

Thanks as well for sending that link to Kenji's introduction to his ISIS deck. I even like the cardback and the way the deck shuffles. The Japanese have such exquisite aesthetic taste. I'm actually a bit of a Nipponophile and collect books about all aspects of Japanese culture. Even their novels and poetry are better than ours. I should do some research to see if there are other Japanese TdMs. A couple of years ago I did find a very sweet Japanese version of the Madenie deck (the most beautiful French TdM design IMHO) about a third of the size of regular cards. Charming but so small it is almost impossible to shuffle with my big beefy man hands.

I probably should ask this in a private message but you mention working on a translation. Can I ask what language and what sort of work you do? That Byron poem you posted recently about Darkness, to go with the Sun card you drew, is terrific. I thought I knew Byron but I hadn't come across that poem before.

[Diana]

Thank you for putting so much energy into this reading. The link between the suit of Wands and the Hermit is something I have never considered before. The desolate vegetationless quality that you mention on the 9 Batons seems to resonate with the Hermit card. Solitude is certainly a factor here. Perhaps I'm frightened of losing his friendship by embarrassing him over such a trivial matter, if it is actually trivial and not something more sinister. Perhaps within a friendship I don't want the experience of feeling powerful. I still am undecided about what to do, but if anything like it happens again I will certainly call him on it, in private at least. There's quite a bit to meditate on here, about my friend's psychology but about my own too.

And thanks to you for the feedback and enriching exchanges. This is my first reading circle ever and it's been a great experience.

It's always a good idea I believe to keep in mind the Major Arcana and their correspondence to the numbers in the Batons. Many people say that this also works also when one reduces the number, e.g. an 8 would have a relationship with not only Justice but also the Star - (1+7=8). I don't believe this though for reasons which would be better explained in a dedicated post in a more suitable thread. For me they only work from 1-10. (I think this may be a case of the blind leading the blind again that I mentioned in a previous post.)

From what you say and the way you say it, it seems that you have caught the message that the cards in this reading were wanting to give to you on a personal and more intimate level. Sometimes I feel that the Tarot uses purposely a more dramatic scenario than what is actually been played out. But a bit of opera and dramatics makes up sit up and pay attention you see. They are sometimes "just" signs we should be aware of, things to keep in mind. Stern warnings sometimes, more friendly ones at others. The Devil is sometimes nothing more than a crow croaking outside our window interrupting our slumber. Once we know it's a crow, we can decide to shoot it or get up at the crack of dawn and go and enjoy the sunrise. Or we can put in ear plugs and sleep in peace. Either way, the problem is solved.

(funny... I get back the third time to the idea of a "play" being acted out, I swear this is completely unintentional).

Also one more thing... when you talk about the psychology of it all... this is another layer to the reading that I glimpsed. But you seem to have everything nicely in hand now (Ace of Batons has things nicely in hands). I often wonder how deep the layers can go in a Tarot reading. Perhaps enough to fill a book sometimes.

Thanks as well for sending that link to Kenji's introduction to his ISIS deck. I even like the cardback and the way the deck shuffles. The Japanese have such exquisite aesthetic taste. I'm actually a bit of a Nipponophile and collect books about all aspects of Japanese culture. Even their novels and poetry are better than ours. I should do some research to see if there are other Japanese TdMs. A couple of years ago I did find a very sweet Japanese version of the Madenie deck (the most beautiful French TdM design IMHO) about a third of the size of regular cards. Charming but so small it is almost impossible to shuffle with my big beefy man hands.

Yes, the whole deck is a pure delight. And I've never had a deck that shuffles so well. Oh, it must be wonderful to have had (taken) the time to explore Japanese culture. I am hugely ignorant indeed of it. Though I do really love tremendously so the manga and anime Fist of the North Star and am a huge huge fan of Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z. Does this count ? Am I a little bit worthy ? .... naaah I doubt it !

For Japanese TdMs, kenji would know. I have no idea how to contact him anymore, but I could possibly find out what his contact details are. Would you like me to try ?

I probably should ask this in a private message but you mention working on a translation. Can I ask what language and what sort of work you do? That Byron poem you posted recently about Darkness, to go with the Sun card you drew, is terrific. I thought I knew Byron but I hadn't come across that poem before.

Oh I just do the occasional translation, only from French into English (not the other way). It's very varied. At the moment I'm translating some texts for the Science Fiction Museum in Switzerland. For their new exhibition on utopia and dystopia. The translations I do for them are hugely interesting and often quite challenging.

Yes, that Byron poem is as you say terrific. From the very first line to the last it grips you in a very tight hold. Did you read the wiki page on it ? I went to find it after you mentioned it.

[dodalisque]

(funny... I get back the third time to the idea of a "play" being acted out, I swear this is completely unintentional).

Yes, you have mentioned that a few times, and I have to congratulate you. Your intuition is working at 100% efficiency. The incident I used for my question did not actually happen to me personally, because nothing ever happens to me and I have terrible trouble finding interesting questions for the reading circle. The story cropped up in a biography I read recently of my favourite novelist, a woman writing in England just after WWII, a sort of 20th century Jane Austen, with the unfortunate name of Elizabeth Taylor. 12 novels and 4 books of short stories - not a bad sentence in any of them. I love her writing and I even have a portrait of her on my bedside table. She invited the once revered but now largely ignored novelist Ivy Compton-Burnet to her house for a dinner party, and though it was before the days of email, an altered Xerox copy was sent to Taylor to explain Ivy's absence.

I personally identify with Taylor so closely that I was not surprised at all when I read that she decided to grovel apologetically instead of telling Ivy that she had a copy of the original invitation and knew exactly what Ivy had done. She was a huge admirer of Compton-Burnet, who was a notoriously eccentric and imperious woman. But when I mentioned the anecdote to friends I was surprised that most people were outraged and insisted they would have made a one hell of a fuss about it. I was touched that Taylor was willing to look foolish rather than embarrass her friend. Also Ivy's absence at the dinner party, which was partly in her honour, caused a lot of inconvenience and expense for Taylor.

So I hope you don't mind about this. You figured it out in spite of the subterfuge. The best part of doing readings I think is the feedback, when the curtain is pulled aside and the actual facts about a situation are revealed. The hazy vision you get during a reading is so persuasive sometimes that it's like scratching an itch when you find out the details. I justify borrowing someone else's story to myself by considering that it was a sort of "typical" situation that I find myself in all the time: should I assert my own needs or should I put them aside in favour of the quiet life. The search for interesting questions every month is a major issue. That's why I'm interested in what's going on in Plato's Cave. Sometime I would also like everyone to start doing "fictive readings" about crucial scenes from fairy-tales, novels, or TV shows. James Ricklef has a lovely book of examples called "Tarot Tells the Tale."

For Japanese TdMs, kenji would know. I have no idea how to contact him anymore, but I could possibly find out what his contact details are. Would you like me to try ?

No, that's fine, thanks. I'm broke these days and not buying many decks. I make an exception when Yves Reynaud makes a new deck. So I assume you were a member at Aeclectic if you are familiar with Kenji. I wonder where everyone went after that site closed down. I'm hoping that they will all become members of Cult of Tarot. I don't know any other sites like it, but I'm not computer savvy so maybe I just don't know where to look.

Yes, that Byron poem is as you say terrific. From the very first line to the last it grips you in a very tight hold. Did you read the wiki page on it ? I went to find it after you mentioned it.

Wow! I just read the Wiki entry. Who knew?! My opinion of that poem has soared even further. I'm only really familiar with "Don Juan" and Byron's (brilliantly rhymed) satirical poetry. "Darkness" is like an anticipation of Existentialism - in its way as desolate as "Moby Dick." And right in the middle of the Romantic period with Christianity lumbering along in the background. Byron somehow found a way to upset everybody.

[Diana]

Hey, that was really nifty how you took a fictitious issue to ask me to do a reading on. Am hugely pleased. The whole thing has fallen into place. In one post I said that this reading was strange but that I like strange, so this was right up my street !!

Am really looking forward to responding to you properly, but doubt I'll have adequate time till Monday. Also I think now that the cat has been let out of the bag, some loose ends could be tied up in the reading.

Just wanted to let you know so you don't think I'm annoyed and that the silence may be due to that. On the contrary, it's delightful what you did!!

[dodalisque]

Hey, that was really nifty how you took a fictitious issue to ask me to do a reading on. Am hugely pleased.

That's a relief. Reading for someone face to face across a table, I think, is different from what we are doing in the reading circle. Here we are mostly practising our interpretive skills rather than tuning in to a client with the help of the cards. There's a kind of telepathic link when someone has a really burning question and they are in the room with you. But some online readers also, myself included, sometimes feel they can receive telepathic insights even without the client present. It might feel frustrating, if you have been seriously communing with your "spider senses", to find out that the whole thing has been a sham. So probably this kind of "fictive reading" belongs in a separate section of its own. Ecch, I don't think so. As long as there is no attempt to embarrass the reader, and the original story is eventually revealed in the feedback, it seems pretty harmless. It might even be preferable since these online readings are open for anyone to read and a good reading often reveals personal information that circle members might feel uncomfortable sharing with the whole world. Maybe it's all part of the fun, and that's why we're here, right. When we are racking our brains to come up with decent questions from our own life each month, it's not the same as desperately wanting an answer the way a real client does.

[Diana]

I wonder if the other people in this reading circle would have been annoyed if they had been the recipient of your subterfuge. I'd be interested to know.

Maybe you intuited that I wouldn't mind, view my interest in the Plato's Cave thread, or maybe not and you would have done this with anyone. Would you have you think, with someone for instance who is not very experienced with the Tarot ? Or whom you didn't know - like a very new member ?

For me it was good, because it tested me without my knowing it was testing me, and I sort of did graduate. But your intention was not to trick me, it was to give us both an interesting reading experience. This I know. I don't feel you were being devious or dishonest.

The devious and dishonest one was Compton-Bennet. Wanting to keep all the spotlight on her. She wanted that Ace of Batons, it wasn't for Taylor to have. Jealous of her success too. I can just picture her in my mind strutting around like a peacock. That 9 of Batons was barren indeed. There was no chance of any connection here as Compton-Bennet had decided to withdraw from that evening. She probably never had any intention of going I would think.

What is fascinating about this reading for me is that it can be read with both you (or rather Taylor) as the King of Coins, and also with your friend/business partner (Compton-Bennet). There are two readings here - but the two do merge at some point too. I don't think I've ever come across this before to such a great extent in the readings I've done.

I think if I were to sum up this reading, it would be thus : "It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you SEE." (capital letters mine). - Henry David Thoreau

I would also like to add that I don't understand why some Tarot readers need to be in the presence of the person they are reading for (you touch on this subject in your above post.) Surely when we read we connect to the Tarot and not to the person ? In fact, isn't it easier NOT to have the person in the room, where we can be troubled or influenced by their body language or their expressions. I think Tarot readers read cards, not people. In short, we connect to the Tarot and the Tarot connects to the person. And then the Tarot comes back to us with its message. It's in the centre, going back and forth. Like a sort of channel.

Edited to add : And also, I'm wondering if the 9 of Batons wasn't in addition a message for me... a clue that this reading was "barren" in a way (to use the term I've used before, although I don't mean it negatively here). But I didn't think of course to include myself in this reading. I think that would have been a bit too much to expect. But if I too were the King of Coins, then I think that Ace of Batons would also have a meaning for me as the reader. So this could even be three different readings in one. And those 9 of Batons, I'd confused them at first with Swords, which was quite astonishing. Sort of like "hey, you're not seeing things properly." Or maybe I was just tired that day... sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

Exit pursued by a bear.

[Charlie Brown]

I wonder if the other people in this reading circle would have been annoyed if they had been the recipient of your subterfuge. I'd be interested to know.

This may interest you:

viewtopic.php?f=154&t=1003

[dodalisque]

I wonder if the other people in this reading circle would have been annoyed if they had been the recipient of your subterfuge. I'd be interested to know. Maybe you intuited that I wouldn't mind

Yes, I think I got a feeling about the kind of person you are from your other contributions on the site. I used to do a lot of online readings for strangers and I was surprised what a strong intuition I got from just a couple of sentences or so - the way they phrased their question. We don't seem to need much information to start building narratives about someone. I like to think it's a form of telepathy, though it isn't usually given that badge of distinction. Isn't a "cold reading" a sort of telepathy, the way we unconsciously register things about a client's appearance or body language to enable us to make guesses about who they are. I don't think even an exploitive "cold reader" who knows nothing about tarot cards is consciously aware of all the messages he is picking up from someone. I've said before elsewhere that I think there's a bit of that in every reading, live or online. The cards are a bridge, a common language, and I wonder if they don't exist simply to make telepathy possible. This isn't to denigrate the cards themselves. But the cards don't work in a vacuum. Maybe that's why taking questions from literary sources like I did, instead of drawing on my own life, is upsetting to some. It might feel like reading for a computer. But as I said, the question I chose was true in essence if not in fact, so not completely impersonal. That's my excuse anyway. I'm not going to repeat the experiment without asking permission in future, but this was fun, eh?