Different meanings from different types of Decks?

[newoldians]

I was wondering how different the meanings you apply to your readings when you are using 3 different types of decks.

RWS and its clone decks
TdM and its clone decks
Thoth and its clone decks

Do you read differently on these different type of decks according to their book meanings? Or do you apply the same meanings to all of these different decks?
For instance 5 of Swords and 5 of Cups in RWS and Thoth clone decks look very negative, but in TdM and its clone deck LWBs, their interpretations for these cards don't seem bad.

And also 4 of Cups in RWS look not exciting, but in Thoth deck, it seems positive etc.
Also 7 of Pentacles in RWS and 7 of Coins in Thoth deck = Thoth deck 7 of Disks look disaster with the dark colours all over the card, and titled as "Failure".

How do you tackle this problem?

[fire cat pickles]

This is a huge and contentious topic. There are many different opinions on this. The RWS and Thoth systems are completely different. They go beyond a simple LWB guide to meanings. For the most part they involve years of study to use either deck. You won't be able to discuss the nuance of the usage of either deck in a simple discussion, much less in one thread here! As far as TdM goes--it's pretty much open season, as reading with the TdM is relatively new. There are some readers who claim ancient, esoteric knowledge on the matter, but truth be told, one can pretty much read with the TdM pretty well however one damn well prefers. Take any LWB you find with a TdM with a grain of salt.

[Joan Marie]

You won't be able to discuss the nuance of the usage of either deck in a simple discussion, much less in one thread here!

We can certainly try!

I would start by saying that each one uses a certain set of symbols and signs that is unique to it. And therefore to a very large extent, they are used completely differently. The more extensive a reader's knowledge of those signs and symbols and how they work in the "cosmology" of that deck, that system if you will, the more tools that reader has at their disposal to extract meanings.

We could engage in a discussion of "what is the tarot" but I'm not sure that's really the right question and I doubt it would lead anywhere useful. At it's simplest, the Tarot is 78 cards, 22 of which are Trump cards and 16 of which are court cards. You could add that those cards are a divination tool.

Maybe it's like comparing a Guitar, a Cello, and a Lute. They are definitely all stringed instruments, all used to make music. But how they are played technically is entirely different. And a musician proficient at one can't just jump to the other, however they would have an advantage in being able to learn it faster, to understand it better. Each of those instruments can be played well or badly, play simple tunes or complex pieces. Yet each is just made of wood and strings.

So to answer your question, I think no they are not read the same at all and how they are read depends on how much you invest in developing your chops, your skills, your connection to the different decks.

I mean, Elvis did a lot with 3-chords. But then there is Segovia.

[Pilgrim]

Hello.

Using different decks by different authors can be like learning different languages. Thats if your learning to interpret Tarot readings through the authors symbolic definitions. There are many modern Tarot authors that make changes to the meanings to fit their understanding and interpretations. Based on my personal experience allot of these modern decks have beautiful artwork and interesting themes but lack the spiritual occult wisdom to facilitate in any students spiritual growth.

Most Tarot educational literature is primarily based on the RWS deck. This option is considered one of the best student decks. It integrates Egyptian, and Christian symbolism with kabbalah wisdom. It was this combination of occult wisdom that contributed to the evolution of the modern civilization we live in today.

The original Thoth Tarot is an older system, and its based on an ancient Egyptian Occult system. Thoth being an ancient Egyptian deity who was also considered a very high ranking and important Demon. He is one of the 7 sons of Satan. He is the most brilliant and intellectual of the Gods. this does not mean the Thoth deck is evil, but it simply express the darker side of nature and the human interaction with it.

I like The Tarot Marseilles because if its classic look and feel. This is a French occult influenced deck that kept centuries old Tarot drawings based on original images to provide the basic meaning. The minor arcana has very little images compared to the RWS so their interpretations are best used with numerology and can best be interpreted with the 4 elements and their numerlogical value.

In all honesty you can use any Tarot deck and interpret the same way if you know the Tarot universal language. I've know people to use the Thoth deck and read it liike its a RWS, so it really all depends on how you program your subconscious mind with the Tarot knowledge. Some people can argue this, but you cant discredit the accuracy of the reader.

I personally use a deck that I have a intuitive connection with.

[Papageno]

I was wondering how different the meanings you apply to your readings when you are using 3 different types of decks.

RWS and its clone decks
TdM and its clone decks
Thoth and its clone decks

You can take his a step or two further and apply this question to the "clones" within each system.

Artwork within the Tarot world has evolved dramatically over the past 2 decades which is a reflection of a broader acceptance of "cross pollination" between the various schools of thought, and the resulting decks that have been created.

Even if we eliminate deliberate hybridizing and consider the basic PCS Rider-Waite and its many clones, we see evidence of differing artistic interpretations for any given card, evoking a wide variety of meanings that move beyond the established definitions.

My personal viewpoint is, it's all in the art, and visual art is very subjective.

Getting back on-track, I think Joan marie summed it best:

"Maybe it's like comparing a Guitar, a Cello, and a Lute. They are definitely all stringed instruments, all used to make music. But how they are played technically is entirely different. And a musician proficient at one can't just jump to the other, however they would have an advantage in being able to learn it faster, to understand it better. Each of those instruments can be played well or badly, play simple tunes or complex pieces. Yet each is just made of wood and strings."

fire cat pickles:

"This is a huge and contentious topic."
yep, it sure is.

"but truth be told, one can pretty much read with the TdM pretty well however one damn well prefers.

wave that red flag you bad boy, well, that's one way of kicking a hornet's nest.

"Take any LWB you find with a TdM with a grain of salt."

That can be said of all LWB's for any and all decks, reading a phone book is more thought provoking and revealing.
I say the publishers should eliminate the costs of printing useless LWB's and devote those funds to better cardstock / printing / packaging......cardstock above all else.

[Papageno]

Using different decks by different authors can be like learning different languages.

true enough.

Thats if your learning to interpret Tarot readings through the authors symbolic definitions.

A dogmatic approach is certainly the proper way to establish the groundwork upon which to build a foundation of knowledge,
but from there we can expand, experiment and still achieve remarkable success.

I liken this to the evolution of architecture through the centuries.

There is a thread within the Group Reading Activities on this forum wherein Merrick reads for Chas.Brown using 3 Noblet (TdM) Majors and cards from the Thoth. You may want to take a look, it's quite fascinating:

viewtopic.php?f=283&t=2752&p=18676#p18676

I personally use a deck that I have a intuitive connection with.

I too favor that approach.

[fire cat pickles]

That can be said of all LWB's for any and all decks, reading a phone book is more thought provoking and revealing.
I say the publishers should eliminate the costs of printing useless LWB's and devote those funds to better cardstock / printing / packaging......cardstock above all else.

Yes! LWB's always remind me of a pajama party, where all are gathered around the deck and look up the answers to "does he like me???" questions!

But seriously, I agree with everything that has been said so far. This is a many-tiered topic and I hope we can cover a lot of ground here. My reading style allows me to apply every deck even-handed abuse to each one, fortunately. I don't often subscribe to one method over the other when reading.

So back to the original question, "how different [are] the meanings you apply to your readings when you are using 3 different types of decks" I would say it depends on the reader and the level of study and time you are willing to put in to your practice. Allow yourself time and patience. Also, allow yourself to change your mind. Don't get too set on one method or the other as time goes by. Don't be afraid of change! Over the years I have added and subtracted methods so much I have lost count. They've changed with the type of deck I've studied and it's been impossible to just "drop" what I've learned when switching from one deck to the next, I've seen absolutely no point in doing so. Some methods I used to poo-poo I now gleefully accept and incorporate in my readings, intuition, for example. Another I use--that seems to drive some people crazy---is not even using spreads. (I hope I'm not going too far off topic here, but some decks/systems do have pre-packaged spreads that go right along with the deck: the Opening of the Key Spread for the Thoth Deck or the Grand Tableau with the Lenormand, to name two examples.)

I am going to take and run with Joan Marie's analogy of the guitar, cello and lute: If you've studied and mastered all three instruments, you're not going to forego the techniques you've learned on each and not use these techniques to better your playing on each of the three instruments are you? You're going to take advantage of those techniques to make your playing virtuosic.

[Joan Marie]

"Take any LWB you find with a TdM with a grain of salt."

That can be said of all LWB's for any and all decks, reading a phone book is more thought provoking and revealing.
I say the publishers should eliminate the costs of printing useless LWB's and devote those funds to better cardstock / printing / packaging......cardstock above all else.

I know a lot of LWBs are provided just an after thought, an expectation met and don't bring much to the table. But I have seen a lot of really good ones too. It all depends on the author. Some take great care and have a lot of knowledge and insight to impart.

A good LWB is a great asset with a deck and a really worthwhile addition that adds a lot of value.

[Pilgrim]

A dogmatic approach is certainly the proper way to establish the groundwork upon which to build a foundation of knowledge,
but from there we can expand, experiment and still achieve remarkable success.

I liken this to the evolution of architecture through the centuries.

There is a thread within the Group Reading Activities on this forum wherein Merrick reads for Chas.Brown using 3 Noblet (TdM) Majors and cards from the Thoth. You may want to take a look, it's quite fascinating:

viewtopic.php?f=283&t=2752&p=18676#p18676

I agree a more dogmatic approach is required for actual learning and being able to interpret the symbolism through logic and reasoning. The tarot and its symbolism has changed to be more compatible with different faiths and cultures. Today there is such a diverse selection then there was 20 years ago. Good to see many enthusiasts publish decks that meet different interests and minorities.

I will check that reading activity you recommend Popageno. Thanks

[Papageno]

I know a lot of LWBs are provided just an after thought, an expectation met and don't bring much to the table. But I have seen a lot of really good ones too. It all depends on the author. Some take great care and have a lot of knowledge and insight to impart.

A good LWB is a great asset with a deck and a really worthwhile addition that adds a lot of value.

I recently came across a deck with an LWB that I thought might fit those criteria, although I can't remember which deck it was, and dismissing LWB's has become a knee-jerk reaction, so I didn't devote more than half a minute to peruse the material.

That being said, some books in fancy boxed sets haven't exactly been up to snuff either, so yes, the quality of the printed information does depend a great deal on the author and publisher.

[newoldians]

Great info and advice. Thank you.
I too, don't use LWBs at all, and they just sit in the Tarot box all the time.
The information in LWB are very brief and simple, so it is hardly worth read, my feeling was.

But then the 2 decks I have, which are the Egyptian Grand Etteilla Tarots and Egyptian Gypsy Tarot, they are totally different kettle of fish from all other Tarots.
They have 78 cards in a deck, but the pictures on them are totally different, and have some totally different card names on each cards. I think they read different ways too. The problem is that there is no text books or guide books for these decks. All they have are the LWBs in the box, and they describes totally different way of reading and card meanings.

In this case, the LWBs are vital. Without them, they cannot be read.

[devin]

... reading with the TdM is relatively new ... Take any LWB you find with a TdM with a grain of salt.

Are you trolling, good sir?

[TheLoracular]

I too, don't use LWBs at all, and they just sit in the Tarot box all the time.
The information in LWB are very brief and simple, so it is hardly worth read, my feeling was.

But then the 2 decks I have, which are the Egyptian Grand Etteilla Tarots and Egyptian Gypsy Tarot, they are totally different kettle of fish from all other Tarots.

They have 78 cards in a deck, but the pictures on them are totally different, and have some totally different card names on each cards. I think they read different ways too. The problem is that there is no text books or guide books for these decks. All they have are the LWBs in the box, and they describes totally different way of reading and card meanings.

In this case, the LWBs are vital. Without them, they cannot be read.

These days for me, LWBs with new decks get set to the side regardless because the print is too small. Its too much eyestrain even with my reading glasses. But as someone with an Egyptian Grand Etteila deck myself? I agree would definitely encourage people to read the LWB if they can and to take some notes and then keep a journal while using it, regardless of how experienced they are with more conventional decks.

Etteila's life story and his own tarot journey really fascinates me and it is my goal to actually read his own book on fortune-telling sometime soon, for the historical perspective if nothing else.

More than LWB, I think it is valuable to read books written or for tarot authors that go through the cards that way, providing insight about what certain cards mean to them is definitely useful but it still doesn't mean that anyone's readings should be forced into strict adherence to anything they read or are told.

It just gets easier and easier to know the right things to focus on and say with practice.

[newoldians]

Etteila's life story and his own tarot journey really fascinates me and it is my goal to actually read his own book on fortune-telling sometime soon, for the historical perspective if nothing else.

More than LWB, I think it is valuable to read books written or for tarot authors that go through the cards that way, providing insight about what certain cards mean to them is definitely useful but it still doesn't mean that anyone's readings should be forced into strict adherence to anything they read or are told.

It just gets easier and easier to know the right things to focus on and say with practice.

I am still not sure if Etteilla Egyptian Tarot cards is a serious Tarot deck for the divination. Because whenever I tried reading with the deck, the readings are usually very depressing and pessimistic. Never it had given a single good reading at all.

And also, I am wondering if there had been any dedicated and serious informative commentaries or guide books ever written for the Tarot deck.
Because I cannot find any reference to the deck at all on the internet. Indeed the only reference it has got is the accompanying LWB, which is just a pack of stapled paper which tends to fall apart after a few readings due to the fragile nature of it.

Or is it just a deck for the collectors. There are a few different versions of the deck too. All look similar with only minor differences. I have 3 different versions of the deck, and one is a special edition printed in Paris France about 10 year ago. It is titled as "Tarot Egyptian" It looks very much like the Etteila Tarot, but none of the information or photos come up on the Google searches.

[TheLoracular]

So Etteila read fortunes with a 32-33 card piquet deck (he added one named after himself to a conventional picquet deck) which was basically a card game deck. Tarot was also just a card game deck too BUT that was about to change. He is considered the founder of cartomancy with Madame Leomand right on his tail. Neither of them used a 78 card tarot deck for cartomancy. But they used card game decks to tell fortunes and people started doing it with tarot decks during their lifespans.

Etteila got interested in actual occultism, the mystical esoteric stuff that the magician-philsophers were into and they were starting to talk about tarot decks and the Hebrew letters. He was kind of their Rudolph; the reindeers didn't want to play games with him because he wasn't rich enough or educated enough for their tastes.

But Etteila was making really good money as a fortune teller and writing about fortune telling. He decided to stop writing about fortune telling (that we know of) for about 10 years and he self-taught himself occultism.

Then he reappeared on scene and started to publish occult philosophy just like those other reindeer. He was passionate about Egyptology, one of the school that was convinced all the True Secrets of tarot and Hermeticism came from Egypt.

He published a second deck (The Grand Etteila) as an esoteric tarot for using for meditation, ceremonial magick and basically said "and you can do cartomancy" with it too. So that was what the deck is really about.

He founded his own magic school - Nouvelle Ecole de Magie - and just about everything written by him and others about his tarot decks has not been translated out of French to English. That I know of.


Lisa Boswell aka the content creator at Divinerism is the only source I personally know of for doing readings with it.

I've never actually tried. I've put it aside to delve into later; after 35 years of reading with RWS-inspired or Thoth or modern eclectic decks, I'm finally learning the Tarot de Marseilles and Eteilla/Egyptian Tarot in that order.

[newoldians]

Great info. Thanks.

I found one of my Etteilla Tarot Egyptien deck from internet search. This is the exact same version as mine.

https://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=110310

https://www.bellebrocante.com/2014/05/t ... ptien.html

https://www.etsy.com/listing/886286700/ ... deck-trois

http://eno-tarot.blogspot.com/2013/03/

Mine is newly reprinted about 10 year ago, so in very good condition.
This deck is more like TdM although the numbering on each cards are totally unfamiliar from the classic TdM.
When I read with this Tarot Egyptien, I just read as TdM ignoring the numbers on the each cards, just use the elements, the pictures and the number of objects on the 4 suits as they appear on the cards like 4 of wands (it shows 4 wands, but different number on the card) and the readings usually get quite meaningful to the questions.

[newoldians]

I recounted my Etteilla Egyptien III, and it is 78 cards.
Exact same as TdM on the each suits and also the major arcana 22 cards, just like the traditional Tarot deck.