Reading the Pips : Cups and Water

[Diana]

In a previous thread is discussed the Suits and the Elements viewtopic.php?f=132&t=2370&p=15235#p15235

Now it's all very well to say "Cups represent Water", or "Swords represent Air/Fire" but when it comes to reading the cards, we need a bit more information than that. That's sort of vague and neither here nor there. So I'm going to start four threads, each one dedicated to a different suit. Maybe with a bit of luck, we'll even be able to sort out the Air/Fire controversy.

So I think it's pretty obvious that if we choose to take into account the four elements in our readings, that the Cups represent the Water element. Because it is a container in which one puts liquid normally. I can't see any arguments against this and doubt anyone else does. The other three elements are in no way reminiscent of Water so there's no controversy possible.

Now, most/all people who are into tarot will say when speaking of the Cups and being asked what they represent will say something like this : "oh yes, Cups represent mostly emotions and feelings". Well, maybe they do. But maybe they don't. In this study that I initiated, I said in the introduction that I was hoping we would try and make our own discoveries. And if they meet up with the usual consensus, well all the better. So I thought why not explore a bit what WATER means.

Now if someone is asked what water symbolically means, or what water means to them, like if you make a little survey or the passengers on your bus ride to work, I doubt many people would say "feelings and emotions". I can imagine this kind of response :

- That's where all life began - in the water. It's where we all originate.
- Water makes me think of the waters in the mother's womb.
- Water makes me think of cleanliness, even purity.
- Water makes me think of the rivers flowing into the oceans.
- Water quenches our thirst. After breath, it's the second most important things for the survival of man.
- Water takes up 60% of our body.
- I read in a book that water has a memory. Isn't that how homeopathy works ?
- In Greek philosophy, water was the original substance from which all things were made.
- Without water, everything would die.
- etc. etc. etc.


So I am asking here, where does the tarot idea of water representing emotions come from ?

[Diana]

So, I did some research on water. This is what I found that makes sense when it comes to water. There is not much talk of emotions and feelings though.

Universally, water is symbolic of purity, fertility, life, motion, renewal, and transformation. The profound symbolism of water comes from its two vital qualities – it is most essential for existence and it cleanses and purifies things by washing away impurities. Its power of transition from liquid to solid and vapour also make it special and a symbol of metamorphosis & recycling.

Water represents life. It is associated with birth, fertility, and refreshment.

Flowing water represents change and the passage of time.

Water can also be very destructive, as in floods or tsunamis. And it erodes even the strongest of stones over time. Water is really the most powerful element I think in the Tarot. And the Ace of Cups is truly the Holy Grail, amongst other great things.

When going on epic journeys, heroes often cross the oceans. And confront the dangers there.

It's really only in contemporary esoteric traditions that water came to be associated with emotions. Which makes me think that this association should perhaps not be the principle one, although there is no harm in adding to things - if they make sense. I'm not fully convinced yet though about this association that up to now, I have always taken for granted without questioning it too much.

I had a great Sunday school teacher for a couple of years once (this was in a Christian Science Sunday school - my mother was a devout Christian Scientist). He was the only good teacher I ever had - the others did their best, but were pretty useless and a waste of time. When I was about 10 or 11, this teacher asked me to stay back in class. And he looked at me intently and said, "I just want to tell you something. Never believe anything if you can't prove it". I'll never forget the seriousness with which he said it. And I am really grateful that he asked me to stay behind that day. I've never forgotten this piece of advice. I liked it that a man of religion would warn me not to be gullible. And to encourage me to research instead of having blind faith. He was a really nice guy. He used to go and visit the political prisoners in the South African jails in his capacity of a man of a church.


Water, is taught by thirst. by Emily Dickinson

Water, is taught by thirst.
Land -- by the Oceans passed.
Transport -- by throe --
Peace -- by its battles told --
Love, by Memorial Mold --
Birds, by the Snow.

[Papageno]

not to dispute anything you've said here, but simply as a matter of pointing this out as an exception, the Crystal Tarot by Elisabetta Trevisan (Lo Scarabeo) aka Tarocchi di Vetro, designates Cups = Air and Swords = Water.

I'm just mentioning this as a passing thought which I've always found interesting.

I suppose it's similar to the debate about whether Swords should be Air vs Fire and Wands being designated as Fire vs Air.

I have no idea what influenced Ms.Trevisan to use the Cups = Air and Swords = Water designations, other than purely personal preferences.
The LWB simply states that her Tarot was influenced by Gustav Klimt, but makes no mention of her following any particular school of esoteric thought.
On a certain level, I understand these associations and they really don't bother me, but that's just me.

Her non-Tarot art is absolutely stunning, it's really mind-boggling.

[Diana]

not to dispute anything you've said here, but simply as a matter of pointing this out as an exception, the Crystal Tarot by Elisabetta Trevisan (Lo Scarabeo) aka Tarocchi di Vetro, designates Cups = Air and Swords = Water.

I'm just mentioning this as a passing thought which I've always found interesting.

I suppose it's similar to the debate about whether Swords should be Air vs Fire and Wands being designated as Fire vs Air.

I have no idea what influenced Ms.Trevisan to use the Cups = Air and Swords = Water designations, other than purely personal preferences.
The LWB simply states that her Tarot was influenced by Gustav Klimt, but makes no mention of her following any particular school of esoteric thought.
On a certain level, I understand these associations and they really don't bother me, but that's just me.

Her non-Tarot art is absolutely stunning, it's really mind-boggling.

I didn't know the the Tarocchi di Vetro made that switch. (Why did they translate Vetro by "Crystal". It's not difficult to translate Vetro into Glass. Even Google translate can do that.) It doesn't really make sense that switch of elements. But there are quite a number of Tarot decks out there made by people who are not really into Tarot and don't always understand the symbolism behind it. I suspect this may be the case here.

She is indeed an outstanding artist.

It's one of the only non TdMs that I own. It's a beautiful deck. A bit useless sometimes for reading (The Tower for instance is void of much meaning). I keep it for the artwork mainly. But it reads quite well. I like it that the pips aren't "illustrated" like in an RWS. I think her father is also an illustrator and artist so it's in the family this passion.

Her Fool is the most beautiful Fool ever. It was inspired by a photo of Nijinsky, the famous Russian ballet dancer - probably the greatest of the 20th century (although he considered himself Polish - he was actually born in the Ukraine from Polish parents). The one who, when asked how he could stay up in the air so long, said "It's easy. You just jump and stay up there". He spent a lot of his later years in and out of psychiatric hospitals. It was very sad.

She kept Justice as 8 and Strength as 11. That's a huge positive. She numbered the Fool 0 which is a negative.

[Papageno]

It's one of the only non TdMs that I own. It's a beautiful deck. A bit useless sometimes for reading (The Tower for instance is void of much meaning). I keep it for the artwork mainly. But it reads quite well. I like it that the pips aren't "illustrated" like in an RWS. I think her father is also an illustrator and artist so it's in the family this passion.

Her Fool is the most beautiful Fool ever. It was inspired by a photo of Nijinsky, the famous Russian ballet dancer - probably the greatest of the 20th century (although he considered himself Polish - he was actually born in the Ukraine from Polish parents). The one who, when asked how he could stay up in the air so long, said "It's easy. You just jump and stay up there". He spent a lot of his later years in and out of psychiatric hospitals. It was very sad.

She kept Justice as 8 and Strength as 11. That's a huge positive. She numbered the Fool 0 which is a negative.

She's obviously using basic TdM format/structure, which accounts for non-scenic pips and maintaining Justice as 8 and Strength as 11, although given the aforementioned inconsistencies regarding Cups/Air and Swords/Water, it shouldn't come as a surprise that she designated The Fool with a "0".

For my own part, the Tower is the Tower, a rose by any other name, but I've come to recognize that you have very exacting preferences.
That's a compliment actually, you're certainly entitled.

I do thank you for pointing out the Fool being modeled after Nijinsky, I always appreciate being enlightened on the inspiration behind an artist's creative process.

Too bad about his in/out of psychiatric institutions, a frightening thought actually when you think about what doctors back then considered "appropriate" as treatments for mental illness, something akin to bleeding and leeches in medieval times.

BTW, I enjoyed your "rant" about The Empress.

[Diana]

For my own part, the Tower is the Tower, a rose by any other name, but I've come to recognize that you have very exacting preferences.

I'm often going on about the Tower because of the TdM Maison Dieu vs the RWS Tower. I can never stress it enough it seems that these two are different.

There is a perfectly good word for Tower in French. It's "Tour". If the TdM Tower were a Tower, it would be called "La Tour". Even hundreds of years ago, this word existed. But people and decks even translate it as The Tower. It annoys me hugely. I can understand the practicality of it though. But one must keep this in mind if one uses the word Tower for Maison Dieu which is a bit awkward in English.

A Maison Dieu is a "God House" and not a House of God as some people think. It's impossible to translate. Maison Dieu at the time when the Tarot was being created indicated either a hospice - a place of shelter and of care; or a hostel for pilgrims on their way and back from the Holy Land.

So you can call a Tower by any name, but a Maison Dieu is not a Tower. And it's not a Rose. The Tower is an RWS invention. Armageddon must have inspired it, I would assume, view Waite's Christian beliefs.

If it's an RWS it's a Tower and it's sort of a horror story.

If it's a TdM... it's the card of Freedom and Liberation and Soft Falling onto Grass with Confetti and Beautiful Flames descending from the Sky.

Oh and it doesn't matter if we're going off-topic. Threads do tend to do so. And I don't think these threads that I've started about reading the Pips are interesting many people so if we start talking about stuff that does interest people, than that's all well and good. I don't know if I'll be continuing my proposal of doing a Pips Study as I think maybe the threads I start are maybe just a waste of space. It must be my approach. It's probably not appealing. I think times they are a changing. There's more a move to EE's method and "intuitive" reading. I think Kris Hadar may be right. People are maybe not really interested in studying the Tarot anymore. And maybe most people would prefer a book where it's all spelled out for them and they don't have to figure it out for themselves.

[Papageno]

I'm often going on about the Tower because of the TdM Maison Dieu vs the RWS Tower. I can never stress it enough it seems that these two are different.

There is a perfectly good word for Tower in French. It's "Tour". If the TdM Tower were a Tower, it would be called "La Tour". Even hundreds of years ago, this word existed. But people and decks even translate it as The Tower. It annoys me hugely.

It's a Maison Dieu in the TdM. A "God House" and NOT a House of God as some people think. It's impossible to translate. Maison Dieu at the time when the Tarot was being created indicated either a hospice - a place of shelter and of care; or a hostel for pilgrims on their way and back from the Holy Land.

That was quite enlightening, thank you.

So you can call a Tower by any name, but a Maison Dieu is not a Tower. And it's not a Rose. The Tower is an RWS invention. Armageddon must have inspired it, I would assume, view Waite's Christian beliefs.

If it's an RWS it's a Tower and it's sort of a horror story.

If it's a TdM... it's the card of Freedom and Liberation and Soft Falling onto Grass with Confetti and Beautiful Flames descending from the Sky.

I wonder if people back in the 16th century would have interpreted the Maison Dieu card as Freedom and Liberaton, I mean we're not exactly talking about Delacroix's painting "Liberty leading the people"

It's all very subjective anyway, I recall some people on the old Aeclectic boards referring to "that" card as an "ah ha" moment, implying a sudden revelation.

Oh and it doesn't matter if we're going off-topic. Threads do tend to do so. And I don't think these threads that I've started about reading the Pips are interesting many people so if we start talking about stuff that does interest people, than that's all well and good. I don't know if I'll be continuing my proposal of doing a Pips Study as I think maybe the threads I start are maybe just a waste of space. It must be my approach. It's probably not appealing. I think times they are a changing. There's more a move to EE's method and "intuitive" reading. I think Kris Hadar may be right. People are maybe not really interested in studying the Tarot anymore. And maybe most people would prefer a book where it's all spelled out for them and they don't have to figure it out for themselves.

The times are always a changin' (thanks Bob Dylan).
I've come to the conclusion that most books, not all, but far too many are useless and nonsensical.

Sorry, but who is "EE"?

[Diana]

I wonder if people back in the 16th century would have interpreted the Maison Dieu card as Freedom and Liberaton, I mean we're not exactly talking about Delacroix's painting "Liberty leading the people"

It's all very subjective anyway, I recall some people on the old Aeclectic boards referring to "that" card as an "ah ha" moment, implying a sudden revelation.

That's true. It's not French revolution - lol -.

But the people of those days would most likely have thought of the Pentecost - when the tongue of flames ascended onto where the apostles were gathered after Jesus' ascension and when the Holy Spirit descended upon them.

That's sort of an "ah ah" moment I would think. And pretty much a revelation.

But there's definitely two guys being liberated from a building which has no doors (very lousy architects) thanks to this tongue of divine fire. They were inside... unable to get out unless they tied their bed sheets from the windows but that would have been very undignified. That's very liberating to have a way out. They may not have wanted to get out - but they have don't have much choice here. It's an act of Grace in a way. These things can't be controlled.

That's when the Martin Luther King Free at Last comes in. It's hugely satisfying to be liberated from one's chains. Even if the chains can in appearance even feel comfortable. It doesn't look like a derelict place where the guys were staying. They may have even dined well and had soft beds to sleep on. But a gilded prison is still a prison.

And soon the night will fall... and the Stars will come out. They're hugely lucky.

Sorry, but who is "EE"?

Enrique Enriquez. There's a nice movie about him which you can watch on snagfilms. https://www.snagfilms.com/films/title/tarology