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L'AMOUREUX VI - the two figures on either side

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Diana
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L'AMOUREUX VI - the two figures on either side

Post by Diana »

I once had the privilege of translating from French one of Alain Bocher's chronicles on LAMOUREUX. Alain Bocher is a very erudite esoteric scholar and also the creator of the extraordinary Tarot de la Réa (I assume it is out of print now). http://tarotgarden.com/tarot-de-la-rea/

Based on the Tarot of Nicolas Conver, Alain believes that the two figures on either side of the young man, are NOT women as is usually assumed but men.

He studied the way they are dressed before coming to this conclusion.

He points out that the person on the right is dressed in the robe of a bourgeois, and is probably a town magistrate, a burgomaster or a provost. His headgear is decorated with a red band, as are the hanging sleeves of his robe, which corroborates his position as a magistrate.

The person on the right of the young man (the younger figure), is not necessarily a woman either. This person is dressed in a long black robe. It was uncommon for young girls to wear black dresses. Even nuns did not wear black, but white; it was only at the end of the seventeenth century that they wore black – and even then – not all of them. Only men dressed in black when they entered the lower seminary, or when they went to the Sorbonne to read their classics. This person is certainly one of these and has put on the robe of students of the arts. His crown of flowers means that he was crowned at the Floral Games. It was customary to place around the forehead a band of golden flowers. In fact, it was their only prize.

(The Floral Games was a literary academy founded in Toulouse in the 12th Century by seven troubadours - the poems later were only allowed if they were in Occitanian.)

---------------

Interestingly, Kris Hadar believes that the Tarot originated in Occitania. If anyone is interested, I can copy an email for you that I received once from him, telling me why he thinks this is so.

L'Amoureux VI.jpg
Rumi was asked “which music sound is haram?” Rumi replied, "The sound of tablespoons playing in the pots of the rich, which are heard by the ears of the poor and hungry." (haram means forbidden)
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Joan Marie
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Re: L'AMOUREUX VI - the two figures on either side

Post by Joan Marie »

here are 3 other random L'AMOUREUX cards.

lovers 1.jpg
lovers 3.jpg
lovers 2.jpg

I have to be honest. I'm not sure I'm buying that. It's definitely possible that on some decks the figures were more masculine in depiction.
And I've always thought that regardless of how how they are depicted, lovers is lovers and whatever particular orientation one has can be represented by that card.

Personally, I've always thought the two looked like a girlfriend and a mother. Is it the guy's mother? is the girl's? Is it a choice between an older and a younger lover?

I think the figures are ambiguously rendered to fit any situation. But the person in the middle is always a guy ,isn't it?
Harkens back a bit to a time when men had all the choices and women, not so much.
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Diana
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Re: L'AMOUREUX VI - the two figures on either side

Post by Diana »

If my memories serve me well, Alain Bocher considered the Conver TdM to be the closest to the original.

My conclusion after all these years is that the person on the left is male and on the right, female. I believe that this card may refer (amongst others) to the necessity to unite the female and the male aspects within us. And this can only be done through Love, through Grace.... coming down from the "heavens" in the form of Cupid. This is a mystical union therefore rather than just two people falling in love.

This mystical practice of uniting the male and female was not unknown in the days of Tarot. This was also of great interest to the Alchemists of the time as well.

A side thought : in the Middle Ages, marriages in the upper classes were arranged anyway and love wasn't the most important factor.

But conclusions when it comes to the Tarot of Marseilles are often just shifting sands, as we'll never be able to talk to those who designed and developed and evolved the first Tarot of Marseilles. That is the beauty of them actually. They're so full of meaning and signification that it is an endless search but full of delightful discoveries !
Rumi was asked “which music sound is haram?” Rumi replied, "The sound of tablespoons playing in the pots of the rich, which are heard by the ears of the poor and hungry." (haram means forbidden)
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Charlie Brown
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Re: L'AMOUREUX VI - the two figures on either side

Post by Charlie Brown »

Marigold wrote: 23 May 2019, 18:53 If my memories serve me well, Alain Bocher considered the Conver TdM to be the closest to the original.
That alone makes him wholly suspect. Why would a deck from 1850 be, all of a sudden, more closely aligned with a lost original then any other deck from the previous century or two?
A side thought : in the Middle Ages, marriages in the upper classes were arranged anyway and love wasn't the most important factor.
I imagine this is a large part of where the notion of choice enters into the card's interpretation.

Although I believe the left hand figure is a woman, the figure on the right side is almost assuredly so. The Visconti-Sforza clearly depicts a man, a woman, and a blindfolded winged being. There's no doubt that it's the general template for later versions of the card. Furthermore, I'm not sure where this idea that the right side figure is wearing black comes from. In the pictures of the Noblet that I could find, the coloring is dark, to be sure, but appears blue. It's indisputably blue in the Dodal. You yourself posted the figure wearing blue. The figure on the right sure looks like a woman to me in most TdM, but there are several Italian and Swiss decks in which it's a male figure, so it seems to at least be plausible. I'd be very curious to know what J. M. David has to say on the matter. I do wish I had that book. If Victoria pops by, perhaps she can look it up.
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Diana
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Re: L'AMOUREUX VI - the two figures on either side

Post by Diana »

Nice to read your comments, Charlie Brown.

I said that as far as I could remember, that Bocher considers the Conver to be very close to the original. But I may be wrong. It's just something that's in my mind somewhere (I've lost our email correspondence unfortunately that we had many many years ago).

Which book are you referring to when you speak of Jean-Michel David ? (I've been out of the loop on these matters).
Rumi was asked “which music sound is haram?” Rumi replied, "The sound of tablespoons playing in the pots of the rich, which are heard by the ears of the poor and hungry." (haram means forbidden)
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Re: L'AMOUREUX VI - the two figures on either side

Post by qndynes »

I've always had issues approaching the TDM lovers card. I feel there is a sense of distance between the card and I. The regular associations with the card as one of uniting the two masculine and feminine, or of making a decision, or as Robert Place indicates being caught between the lower lustful path and higher virtuous path are all well and good, but still? I've always felt that there is something there that I'm just not fully seeing. I like Camelia Elias's approach to this card, that it is a card of indecision. Clearly, the person in the middle is undecided, but in the midst of the indecision, what does cupid play? Taking the decision of the middle person in his bow and arrow? I get what all these significations mean but the distance is still present. It's just curious, and as I read the thread these thoughts of mine came back.

Apologies that this is not exactly related to the direction of the thread perhaps!
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Re: L'AMOUREUX VI - the two figures on either side

Post by Diana »

qndynes : Thank you so much for your post ! I too have struggled long and hard with this card, and I've never been able to get close and intimate with it. (Another card I have never been able to even approach with any understanding is The Moon. Perhaps we can speak about her in a separate thread).

Nearly twenty years ago, a friend did a reading for me. I've received two readings in my life which blew my mind and kept them both. The one made for me that I speak of, talks of L'Amoureux. I think I'll share a part of what she said about this card here.

"L'Amoureux has nothing to do with choices. There are no decisions to be made here. There is destiny... and surrender. When we open our hearts and completely surrender our desire to control what is happening to us, we become our most powerful. Because it is then that we can connect to the universal life force that exists within everything, and we are opened up to receiving the healing and abundance that is our birthright. When we try to control things, we are in a state of fear. The only way to break out of the fear state is through Love. So open your heart, it will not break".

Of course, this was a reading for me at a particular time of my life. There were other cards surrounding these that inspired this message. That's the beauty of the Tarot. It's a picture book with loose pages, so each time we read it, a new narrative appears.
Rumi was asked “which music sound is haram?” Rumi replied, "The sound of tablespoons playing in the pots of the rich, which are heard by the ears of the poor and hungry." (haram means forbidden)
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Re: L'AMOUREUX VI - the two figures on either side

Post by katrinka »

For the purpose of reading cards, I don't think it matters who the figures on the sides were originally intended to be. They tend to change, relative tothe context of the reading.
The old (non-GD) Hebrew letter correspondence for this card is Vav. Vav is a hook, a peg. And one of those people is about to get hooked by the Cupid. :lol:
Jodorowsky said something to the effect that the core meaning of the card isn't about the people, or the Cupid, but the radiance behind the Cupid, the way it acts on us "here below". This makes sense to me.
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Diana
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Re: L'AMOUREUX VI - the two figures on either side

Post by Diana »

katrinka wrote: 30 May 2019, 18:57 For the purpose of reading cards, I don't think it matters who the figures on the sides were originally intended to be. They tend to change, relative tothe context of the reading.
The old (non-GD) Hebrew letter correspondence for this card is Vav. Vav is a hook, a peg. And one of those people is about to get hooked by the Cupid. :lol:
Jodorowsky said something to the effect that the core meaning of the card isn't about the people, or the Cupid, but the radiance behind the Cupid, the way it acts on us "here below". This makes sense to me.
Ha !!! I think you've summed it up very nicely. You're right, who cares who those people are? (But honestly, I have always wondered why the middle person isn't wearing any trousers. :roll: )

The radiance behind the Cupid. Now what more is left to say after that ??
Rumi was asked “which music sound is haram?” Rumi replied, "The sound of tablespoons playing in the pots of the rich, which are heard by the ears of the poor and hungry." (haram means forbidden)
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qndynes
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Re: L'AMOUREUX VI - the two figures on either side

Post by qndynes »

Marigold wrote: 30 May 2019, 18:35 qndynes : Thank you so much for your post ! I too have struggled long and hard with this card, and I've never been able to get close and intimate with it. (Another card I have never been able to even approach with any understanding is The Moon. Perhaps we can speak about her in a separate thread).

Nearly twenty years ago, a friend did a reading for me. I've received two readings in my life which blew my mind and kept them both. The one made for me that I speak of, talks of L'Amoureux. I think I'll share a part of what she said about this card here.

"L'Amoureux has nothing to do with choices. There are no decisions to be made here. There is destiny... and surrender. When we open our hearts and completely surrender our desire to control what is happening to us, we become our most powerful. Because it is then that we can connect to the universal life force that exists within everything, and we are opened up to receiving the healing and abundance that is our birthright. When we try to control things, we are in a state of fear. The only way to break out of the fear state is through Love. So open your heart, it will not break".

Of course, this was a reading for me at a particular time of my life. There were other cards surrounding these that inspired this message. That's the beauty of the Tarot. It's a picture book with loose pages, so each time we read it, a new narrative appears.
Oh that's a beautiful reading of the lovers card. I can see how destiny plays the central role with cupid, the celestial, that which is above, guiding the focus. I really like this and have to sit with it. Thank you for sharing as it's a way of seeing the card I've never heard before.

As far as the moon, hm, I can see how that can be vague. Isn't the nature of the card one of vagueness and illusions. Seeing shadows in the dark? I do like the moon card, and would love to explore in another thread as well.
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Re: L'AMOUREUX VI - the two figures on either side

Post by qndynes »

katrinka wrote: 30 May 2019, 18:57 For the purpose of reading cards, I don't think it matters who the figures on the sides were originally intended to be. They tend to change, relative to the context of the reading.
The old (non-GD) Hebrew letter correspondence for this card is Vav. Vav is a hook, a peg. And one of those people is about to get hooked by the Cupid. :lol:
Jodorowsky said something to the effect that the core meaning of the card isn't about the people, or the Cupid, but the radiance behind the Cupid, the way it acts on us "here below". This makes sense to me.
Oh, I like this. And yes, I completely agree that it depends on the context of the question. The idea of the brilliance behind cupid being the true focus reaffirms the aspect of destiny, of intervention from above, something celestial. I really am curious about the non GD hebrew letter associations.
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Re: L'AMOUREUX VI - the two figures on either side

Post by katrinka »

They're listed here, and you can click over and compare them to Crowley's, etc. https://nofaithinthehumanrace.com/777/? ... &show777=1

The big difference is that Levi, Wirth, et. al. assigned the Fool to the 21st letter, Shin, and the Magician to Aleph. The GD lists the Fool as Aleph, and goes in order from there.

Either will work, IMHO. But I do think that the pose of the Magician echoes the letter Aleph! Not all of them match up so nicely, however. It could be pure coincidence, but I like to think it isn't. :)

As far as the meanings go, this is a pretty comprehensive site that goes letter by letter and gives some interesting details, but manages not to be too dry and tedious. http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/alphabet_ ... aleph.html Of course, different occultists put their own slants on things, but this is what's essentially at the root of it.
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Re: L'AMOUREUX VI - the two figures on either side

Post by _R_ »

Both Alain Bocher's LWB and his main Tarot book (if we leave aside his Cahiers) are now freely available online courtesy of his publisher:
https://arbredor.com/collections/divina ... ot-memoire
https://arbredor.com/collections/divina ... e-d-emploi
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