This forum is officially closed. It will however remain online and active in a limited form for the time being.

Tarot and the language of the birds

Discussion of the symbolism, history and how to read with the Marseilles
User avatar
Diana
Sage
Posts: 1882
Joined: 13 May 2019, 17:23

Tarot and the language of the birds

Post by Diana »

Now, the language of the birds (le langage des oiseaux) was originally the secret language of the Troubadours (our Bateleur is a Troubadour!!). It's still explored today in literary circles and similar. The language of the birds is a play on words, more than just ordinary puns or mundane stuff (the word for "pun" in French is "jeu de mots"). Le language des oiseaux has deep layers - it's so magical, so poetical, so beautiful. I think one of the privileges of knowing French well is to be able to apprehend the beauty of this language of the birds. I swear, it's really as if you can hear the birds singing (I'm not kidding you). I would find it hard to believe that any other language could lend itself so perfectly to such expression.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_of_the_birds

I would like to share one example with you related to the Tarot. French tarologists have always found references to the language of the birds in the TdM. They seem to pop up all the time. It's considered part of the Tarot tradition.

So here is one which is rather curious, and which has nothing to do this time with the names of the cards or anything pictoral (as is often the case).

The proper name for Tarot cards in French is not "carte" (although this is used in more informal situations and is most common). However, the formal and proper name, used in the more studious contexts, is "lame". \ɑm\ .The word "carte" for the Tarot of Marseilles just never took off for some reason. To hear it pronounced : http://shtooka.net/listen/fra/l%27%C3%A2me.

A "lame" is the woodblock on which the original cards were engraved before being reproduced. Ordinary playing cards were also printed on "lames", but no-one ever has and never does ever refer to them as "lames" - they are just plain cartes / cards. Whatever type they are. Only the Tarot of Marseilles has retained this terminology.

Now Lame is, in the language of the birds, "L'ÂME". Which means "THE SOUL". I like that so much.

There's also a nice one regarding the Maison Dieu...
Rumi was asked “which music sound is haram?” Rumi replied, "The sound of tablespoons playing in the pots of the rich, which are heard by the ears of the poor and hungry." (haram means forbidden)
User avatar
qndynes
Sage
Posts: 296
Joined: 29 May 2019, 18:41

Re: Tarot and the language of the birds

Post by qndynes »

Marigold wrote: 26 Jun 2019, 16:47 Now, the language of the birds (le langage des oiseaux) was originally the secret language of the Troubadours (our Bateleur is a Troubadour!!). It's still explored today in literary circles and similar. The language of the birds is a play on words, more than just ordinary puns or mundane stuff (the word for "pun" in French is "jeu de mots"). Le language des oiseaux has deep layers - it's so magical, so poetical, so beautiful. I think one of the privileges of knowing French well is to be able to apprehend the beauty of this language of the birds. I swear, it's really as if you can hear the birds singing (I'm not kidding you). I would find it hard to believe that any other language could lend itself so perfectly to such expression.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_of_the_birds

I would like to share one example with you related to the Tarot. French tarologists have always found references to the language of the birds in the TdM. They seem to pop up all the time. It's considered part of the Tarot tradition.

So here is one which is rather curious, and which has nothing to do this time with the names of the cards or anything pictoral (as is often the case).

The proper name for Tarot cards in French is not "carte" (although this is used in more informal situations and is most common). However, the formal and proper name, used in the more studious contexts, is "lame". \ɑm\ .The word "carte" for the Tarot of Marseilles just never took off for some reason. To hear it pronounced : http://shtooka.net/listen/fra/l%27%C3%A2me.

A "lame" is the woodblock on which the original cards were engraved before being reproduced. Ordinary playing cards were also printed on "lames", but no-one ever has and never does ever refer to them as "lames" - they are just plain cartes / cards. Whatever type they are. Only the Tarot of Marseilles has retained this terminology.

Now Lame is, in the language of the birds, "L'ÂME". Which means "THE SOUL". I like that so much.

There's also a nice one regarding the Maison Dieu...
Goodness, there's so much here, and yes the language of the birds, magical/poetic indeed. This also ties with the green language from a perspectivist approach. Thinking here with myths, and with the green world (non-human centric). Hm, I need to go sleuthing for things I've collated through the years regarding this... But do keep going! La maison dieu...
Thoughts are things, and words have wings.
User avatar
Diana
Sage
Posts: 1882
Joined: 13 May 2019, 17:23

Re: Tarot and the language of the birds

Post by Diana »

qndynes wrote: 27 Jun 2019, 16:14 Goodness, there's so much here, and yes the language of the birds, magical/poetic indeed. This also ties with the green language from a perspectivist approach. Thinking here with myths, and with the green world (non-human centric). Hm, I need to go sleuthing for things I've collated through the years regarding this... But do keep going! La maison dieu...
Green language, huh ? Something new for me. But indeed on the wiki page on this subject it mentions this but I hadn't paid attention : In mythology, medieval literature and occultism, the language of the birds is postulated as a mystical, perfect divine language, green language, Adamic language, Enochian, angelic language or a mythical or magical language used by birds to communicate with the initiated.

I mentioned specifically the Troubadors due to the TdM and the time when it was created and developed. They played an important role in those days. But of course it's much more ancient than them.

Can you rephrase what you mean by a "perspectivist" approach ? I don't understand what this means.

La Maison Dieu ? As you know, the arcanum XVI is not a Tower, but a Maison Dieu (house of god). At the time this would refer to either a sort of hospital, run by the church; or it could have some reference to the Knights Templars; or it could refer to a name given to the places where the crusaders could stop overnight for sustenance and rest. But in any case it's NOT a Tower and it has something to do with a House and God.

LA MAISON DIEU
L'ÂME ET SON DIEU which means "The Soul and its God".

Alternatively it can also be "L'AME EST SON DIEU" which would mean "The Soul IS its God." The two are pronounced the same. Both are therefore right because both sing as the birds do.

The Tarot loves to speak of the Soul, I've noticed. It's very beautiful.
Rumi was asked “which music sound is haram?” Rumi replied, "The sound of tablespoons playing in the pots of the rich, which are heard by the ears of the poor and hungry." (haram means forbidden)
User avatar
qndynes
Sage
Posts: 296
Joined: 29 May 2019, 18:41

Re: Tarot and the language of the birds

Post by qndynes »

Marigold wrote: 27 Jun 2019, 17:21
qndynes wrote: 27 Jun 2019, 16:14 Goodness, there's so much here, and yes the language of the birds, magical/poetic indeed. This also ties with the green language from a perspectivist approach. Thinking here with myths, and with the green world (non-human centric). Hm, I need to go sleuthing for things I've collated through the years regarding this... But do keep going! La maison dieu...
Green language, huh ? Something new for me. But indeed on the wiki page on this subject it mentions this but I hadn't paid attention : In mythology, medieval literature and occultism, the language of the birds is postulated as a mystical, perfect divine language, green language, Adamic language, Enochian, angelic language or a mythical or magical language used by birds to communicate with the initiated.

I mentioned specifically the Troubadors due to the TdM and the time when it was created and developed. They played an important role in those days. But of course it's much more ancient than them.

Can you rephrase what you mean by a "perspectivist" approach ? I don't understand what this means.
Oh goodness, I cannot find what I was looking for, a specific essay from an anthropologist that spoke of the green language, can't find it, will keep looking.

In the meantime, perspectivism how I refer to it is tied to animism and an animist ontology and epistemology. I think I should have rephrased myself better. Very briefly and in non sophisticated language, hahaha, I'm no scholar! animism is a perspectivist approach to understanding and communicating with the world. What, to me, the language of the birds embodies in its multifaceted understanding is exactly that. A language that is understood in interdisciplinary ways. From different perspectives, not just the logical human 1+1=2 POV. Meaning that the language of the birds is an unfolding, where meaning is created through context(landscape, experience, moment) continually.

So in the case of tarot, as we experience the cards, read with the cards, meaning becomes a living experience where the cards and ourselves, within the context of the situation, the place, the time, etc., enter into an unfolding conversation. Where meaning, significations, and portents arise in the midst of.

I hope I make sense! I give this a lot of thought, especially since from a philosophical standpoint this is a huge area of interest for me.
Thoughts are things, and words have wings.
User avatar
qndynes
Sage
Posts: 296
Joined: 29 May 2019, 18:41

Re: Tarot and the language of the birds

Post by qndynes »

Marigold wrote: 27 Jun 2019, 17:21
La Maison Dieu ? As you know, the arcanum XVI is not a Tower, but a Maison Dieu (house of god). At the time this would refer to either a sort of hospital, run by the church; or it could have some reference to the Knights Templars; or it could refer to a name given to the places where the crusaders could stop overnight for sustenance and rest. But in any case it's NOT a Tower and it has something to do with a House and God.

LA MAISON DIEU
L'ÂME ET SON DIEU which means "The Soul and its God".

Alternatively it can also be "L'AME EST SON DIEU" which would mean "The Soul IS its God." The two are pronounced the same. Both are therefore right because both sing as the birds do.

The Tarot loves to speak of the Soul, I've noticed. It's very beautiful.
Also, this is beautiful!

Also, also, words are so powerful. I love how here one thing is like the other, which transforms into something else. All the possible significations for La Maison Dieu, stringing along the soul, god, the tarot, and how we understand words and the visual language.
Thoughts are things, and words have wings.
User avatar
_R_
Sybil
Posts: 114
Joined: 11 May 2019, 05:52

Re: Tarot and the language of the birds

Post by _R_ »

Hi Diana, if memory serves, the use of the term "lame" literally, "blade," goes back - along with "arcanes" - "arcana" - to Paul Christian/J.-B. Pitois and his books. I do not think it refers to woodblocks, although one could check d'Allemagne or any other reference work on cardmaking, just to be sure. Again, if my memory is correct, the idea was that the "original Egyptian" images were printed (or engraved?) on thin sheets of metal, rather than paper, hence the 'metallic' term used.
User avatar
Diana
Sage
Posts: 1882
Joined: 13 May 2019, 17:23

Re: Tarot and the language of the birds

Post by Diana »

_R_ wrote: 29 Jun 2019, 11:53 Hi Diana, if memory serves, the use of the term "lame" literally, "blade," goes back - along with "arcanes" - "arcana" - to Paul Christian/J.-B. Pitois and his books. I do not think it refers to woodblocks, although one could check d'Allemagne or any other reference work on cardmaking, just to be sure. Again, if my memory is correct, the idea was that the "original Egyptian" images were printed (or engraved?) on thin sheets of metal, rather than paper, hence the 'metallic' term used.
You're absolutely correct. I couldn't find a translation in English so I used an approximation (which I shouldn't have). I still don't know the correct technical term in English although I searched for quite some time. Thank you so much for this important correction. Thank goodness you're here!!!!
Rumi was asked “which music sound is haram?” Rumi replied, "The sound of tablespoons playing in the pots of the rich, which are heard by the ears of the poor and hungry." (haram means forbidden)
User avatar
Diana
Sage
Posts: 1882
Joined: 13 May 2019, 17:23

Re: Tarot and the language of the birds

Post by Diana »

qndynes wrote: 28 Jun 2019, 15:38
In the meantime, perspectivism how I refer to it is tied to animism and an animist ontology and epistemology. I think I should have rephrased myself better. Very briefly and in non sophisticated language, hahaha, I'm no scholar! animism is a perspectivist approach to understanding and communicating with the world. What, to me, the language of the birds embodies in its multifaceted understanding is exactly that. A language that is understood in interdisciplinary ways. From different perspectives, not just the logical human 1+1=2 POV. Meaning that the language of the birds is an unfolding, where meaning is created through context(landscape, experience, moment) continually.

So in the case of tarot, as we experience the cards, read with the cards, meaning becomes a living experience where the cards and ourselves, within the context of the situation, the place, the time, etc., enter into an unfolding conversation. Where meaning, significations, and portents arise in the midst of.

I hope I make sense! I give this a lot of thought, especially since from a philosophical standpoint this is a huge area of interest for me.
Now this is a fantastic addition to this thread. The unfolding... that is what life is all about isn't it ? It unfolds, reveals its multiplicity of layers and endless possibilities.

I could listen to you for hours.
Rumi was asked “which music sound is haram?” Rumi replied, "The sound of tablespoons playing in the pots of the rich, which are heard by the ears of the poor and hungry." (haram means forbidden)
devin
Sybil
Posts: 76
Joined: 09 May 2019, 06:24

Re: Tarot and the language of the birds

Post by devin »

What an interesting thread!
qndynes wrote:not just the logical human 1+1=2 POV
It has been said that, aside from being a sort of cloaking device, the language of the birds/green language in alchemical texts serves also to break down overly rational methods of thinking within the mind of the aspirant. In this sense, exposure to the language of the birds acts as a kind of ripening process for the of grasping higher truths, serving the same function as those little zen riddles, I suppose.

If you think about it, all experience mystical (from psychics to cartomancy to ufos) are pretty offensive to Aristotelian logic and the concept of binary oppositions (something is either A or not A) in particular. They're offensive to binary oppositions because they blur boundaries - dead/alive, imagined/real, internal/external, asleep/awake, etc.

And is not the ultimate goal of alchemy the uniting of opposites?

I don't know if that gets us any further down the road, but the above has always struck me as somehow important (even if I'm not sure why or how).
qndynes wrote:a perspectivist approach to understanding and communicating with the world. What, to me, the language of the birds embodies in its multifaceted understanding is exactly that. A language that is understood in interdisciplinary ways. From different perspectives, not just the logical human 1+1=2 POV. Meaning that the language of the birds is an unfolding, where meaning is created through context(landscape, experience, moment) continually.
When talking about culture and religion, Vine Deloria, the late anthropologist and North American Indian, drew a distinction between what he called spatial and temporal perspectives. In his view, indigenous folk approached the world from a spatial perspective - their culture and practices derived from, and orientated toward dealing with, a particular place. Whereas dominant world cultures are built around a temporal view of the world, focusing on process, evolution and destiny.

In my view, we are creatures located both spatially AND temporally. So I think a rounded position would probably include both perspectives.

One thing I think indigenous thought and the Abrahamic traditions at their best can agree on is a need to respect the world's creatures as fellow beings and individuals. So I'm a little wary of subsuming nature into an abstract meaning making machine. But perhaps I'm misrepresenting or misunderstanding your ideas on animism, qndynes.

Anyway, in the spirit of my last paragraph, I leave it open that when tribal people speak of the language of the birds, they are being very literal, with no further speculation needed.

OK, and finally, I'm sure everyone who's posted has come across this, but here's J.C. Flornoy on the language of the birds as it relates to reading tarot:
The Language of the Birds

A Magic of words and images

Before focusing directly on the subject at hand, let us review the history.

On October 13, 1307, the king of France, Philippe le Bel, ordered the arrest of the members of the Knights Templars. In the afternoon of March 19, 1314 the order of the Temple was definitively eliminated with Jacques de Molay's death at the stake on the l’Ile aux Juifs in Paris. It was on this critical afternoon that the masters of the builders' fraternities launched what the Companions traditionally call the Strike of the Cathedrals.

In three weeks the word spread over all the construction sites in provinces controlled by the king. All the workers, from master to apprentice, put down their tools and either left France or returned to their families. Medieval sacred society died in this strike and the emigration that followed. No church or chapel would ever again be built according to the rules of sacred construction, that art which uses stone to magnify the telluric forces of the wouïvre and confer this energy on the believers within. For Europe this signals the beginning of the Inquisition and the dictatorship of the church.

Those who stay on must leave their fraternities and, if they want to remain alive, melt into the anonymity of civil society.

Those who leave go for the most part to northern Italy, where they will generate the Renaissance in their work for the princes. Some fraternities go yet farther away: one from Poitou went as far as the Middle East, in the last Frankish (Christian) kingdom that still resisted Islam, that of the Lusignans of Cilicie, wedged between today's Syria and Turkey.

A small kingdom pledged to the Romano-Germanic emperor, Cilicie disappeared under the blows of the Marmelukes in 1375. The sons of those who participated in the cathedral strike returned to Christian lands, to the effervescence of Northern Italy where, known as "Sarrasins" they invested their knowledge, like a bottle thrown into the sea, in the tarot.

So when we speak of the "language of the birds" we must articulate two periods: before the Strike, when this "tongue" is spoken in the language of goth* art and is expressed in words and images on all the cathedral building sites, and after the Strike, when it goes underground.

The language of the birds functions through spontaneity and direct comprehension. A classic example, though late – probably 17th century – can be found in the names of old inns on old roads in France. There are many roadside inns bearing signs « au lion d’or » (at the golden lion), or « au cochon d’or »(at the golden pig).

What does the image mean? Nothing in particular; just a golden lion, often badly drawn, or a golden pig. Why then give such a seemingly stupid name to an inn? Because once "au lit on dort " (in bed one sleeps), or at the place where the coach stops (au coche) "on dort" (one sleeps). Coche was the name in old French for pig.

We find ourselves in the play on words which characterises this "language of the birds". Of course the people of this time did not just focus on such foolishness. Their jargon, as sons of Mother Goose*, subjects of the Queen Pédauque*, as men "pattés*" was that of baby geese (oisons) and not birds (oiseaux). We are in the tradition of "Maitre Jacque's children." For these magicians, as for certain Sufis of today, what counted above all was the creation of that magic instant of suspended time, this astonishment by which we are all connected with the divine. Their word plays must literally "take your breath away". The cagots of Southwestern France bore the last vestiges of this culture and wore, until around 1730, a goose's footprint in red cloth sewn on the left shoulder.

The language of goslings dating from the first period is perfectly direct, meant to be taken literally, at the instant.

At the Romanesque-Byzantine abbey built by Eléonore d’Aquitaine at Souillac (department of Lot), the capital of the 8th ambulatory pillar depicts doves putting their beaks in an owl's ear. This is Athena's owl of course, and represents access to knowledge. At Talmont in the Charente, it is a heron which relates to the owl. >

During one of my visits to Souillac I calmly pursued my labyrinth while paying special attention to the different images sculpted on the capitals in the choir. Coming to the 8th pillar and not understanding the image, I put my back against it and closed my eyes, creating as much stillness as I could, and waited. I was not disappointed. After some minutes of waiting and meditative idling, my ears were literally ripped apart by a terrible noise. Emerging from my torpor with a powerful shock and opening my eyes, I found that I was alone except for a tourist who was standing at the entrance in the process of putting a postcard in an envelope!!!

It was this infinitesimal sound which had, from sixty meters away, literally blown my head away. Since it was the third time that I had heard a sound of this type, I immediately understood that this was the sound's second harmonic, audible only from that specific spot. That is why the birds unstop the owl's ears and offer you access to what the ancients called the "third ear".

That is the language of the birds. Expression is direct: you are told to stand up against the pillar in order to have your subtle ear unblocked. If you try and fix on a "symbol" which explains this image you risk getting caught up in verbiage and entirely missing the event itself, and it is only this experience that interested the ancients.

Many are the images of this sort, and many are the astonishing experiences at our disposal if we manage to not analyse what we see; but just experiment. All European Romanesque churches and chapels are loaded with these images. It is up to you to see them and let them live within you. Back against the pillar, let yourself be "bewitched": that is goth* art.

Thus we see this language of the goslings already expressed on two levels: a game of words and images, a game of image and experimentation.

When the engraver Nicolas Conver places three dots on the breast of arcane XV, The Devil, one must read his message as simply as possible: Freemasonry is a Devil. That's all! All further explanation is superfluous.

After the Templars' extermination and the arrival of the Inquisition, the social life of Europe slipped back into the repression of the old sciences. Tens of thousands of fires were lit. Only certain professions retained their traditions over the centuries: doctors, apothecaries, builders and a few others. The language of the goslings, flown to other skies since March 19, 1314, becomes the language of the birds and goes underground to become the language of initiates. Its word plays become increasingly savant, even employing Greek.

As for the alchemists' image games, some are still understandable, but many must be approached with considerable erudition.

From time to time we meet individuals whose freshness and spontaneity of language create, like a blow to the plexus, that moment of astonishment. Each of them is, at that instant at least, The Fool who reactivates the language of the birds.

Jean-Claude Flornoy

January 6, 2004 at Sainte-Suzanne

art goth* : the least bad definition seems to stem from the Greek origin of the word goth: art of light, art of spirit
My Mother Goose*: traditional collection of oral teachings, later re-worked by Perrault.
Queen Pédauque* : legendary queen of the Romanesque people
pattés* : having the goose footprint in red cloth sewn on the left shoulder, as the Jews wore the yellow star
SOURCE: https://letarot.com/dossiers-chauds/lan ... birds.html
devin
Sybil
Posts: 76
Joined: 09 May 2019, 06:24

Re: Tarot and the language of the birds

Post by devin »

@qndynes

You might find this blog interesting: http://aspiringanimist.com/

It's run by an Australian civil servant and chronicles (among other things) his quest to engage with the world animistically (he uses the term relational).

His masters thesis on animism (an interesting read) can be found here:

http://aspiringanimist.com/2018/07/09/i ... -chapters/
http://aspiringanimist.com/2018/07/09/t ... t-version/
http://aspiringanimist.com/2018/07/19/chapter-two/
http://aspiringanimist.com/2018/08/06/c ... ge-system/
http://aspiringanimist.com/2018/08/18/c ... ern-world/

In my experience, he's more than happy to correspond via email.

Peace,
Devin.
User avatar
qndynes
Sage
Posts: 296
Joined: 29 May 2019, 18:41

Re: Tarot and the language of the birds

Post by qndynes »

devin wrote: 02 Jul 2019, 06:44 What an interesting thread!
qndynes wrote:not just the logical human 1+1=2 POV
It has been said that, aside from being a sort of cloaking device, the language of the birds/green language in alchemical texts serves also to break down overly rational methods of thinking within the mind of the aspirant. In this sense, exposure to the language of the birds acts as a kind of ripening process for the of grasping higher truths, serving the same function as those little zen riddles, I suppose.

If you think about it, all experience mystical (from psychics to cartomancy to ufos) are pretty offensive to Aristotelian logic and the concept of binary oppositions (something is either A or not A) in particular. They're offensive to binary oppositions because they blur boundaries - dead/alive, imagined/real, internal/external, asleep/awake, etc.

Yes, this is what I was getting at.

And is not the ultimate goal of alchemy the uniting of opposites?

I don't know if that gets us any further down the road, but the above has always struck me as somehow important (even if I'm not sure why or how).
qndynes wrote:a perspectivist approach to understanding and communicating with the world. What, to me, the language of the birds embodies in its multifaceted understanding is exactly that. A language that is understood in interdisciplinary ways. From different perspectives, not just the logical human 1+1=2 POV. Meaning that the language of the birds is an unfolding, where meaning is created through context(landscape, experience, moment) continually.
When talking about culture and religion, Vine Deloria, the late anthropologist and North American Indian, drew a distinction between what he called spatial and temporal perspectives. I'm thinking along these spatial and temporal perspectives but also from the angle of personhood. This is me thinking with Kohn's How Forests Think: Toward and Anthropology Beyond the Human.In his view, indigenous folk approached the world from a spatial perspective - their culture and practices derived from, and orientated toward dealing with, a particular place. Whereas dominant world cultures are built around a temporal view of the world, focusing on process, evolution and destiny.

In my view, we are creatures located both spatially AND temporally. So I think a rounded position would probably include both perspectives.

One thing I think indigenous thought and the Abrahamic traditions at their best can agree on is a need to respect the world's creatures as fellow beings and individuals. So I'm a little wary of subsuming nature into an abstract meaning making machine. But perhaps I'm misrepresenting or misunderstanding your ideas on animism, qndynes. I'm thinking along the same lines as you, perhaps my wording is insufficient.

Anyway, in the spirit of my last paragraph, I leave it open that when tribal people speak of the language of the birds, they are being very literal, with no further speculation needed. Yes, exactly.
Thoughts are things, and words have wings.
User avatar
qndynes
Sage
Posts: 296
Joined: 29 May 2019, 18:41

Re: Tarot and the language of the birds

Post by qndynes »

devin wrote: 02 Jul 2019, 09:35 @qndynes

You might find this blog interesting: http://aspiringanimist.com/

It's run by an Australian civil servant and chronicles (among other things) his quest to engage with the world animistically (he uses the term relational).

His masters thesis on animism (an interesting read) can be found here:

http://aspiringanimist.com/2018/07/09/i ... -chapters/
http://aspiringanimist.com/2018/07/09/t ... t-version/
http://aspiringanimist.com/2018/07/19/chapter-two/
http://aspiringanimist.com/2018/08/06/c ... ge-system/
http://aspiringanimist.com/2018/08/18/c ... ern-world/

In my experience, he's more than happy to correspond via email.

Peace,
Devin.
Thank you! There's a lot here to chew on!
Thoughts are things, and words have wings.
User avatar
_R_
Sybil
Posts: 114
Joined: 11 May 2019, 05:52

Re: Tarot and the language of the birds

Post by _R_ »

Those interested in further pursuing this aspect of language and esoterism will want to read the alchemist Fulcanelli's works, which are available in English; Le Mystère des cathédrales/The Mystery of the Cathedrals and the Dwellings of the Philosophers. The pseudonymous author gives many examples of this so-called "language of the birds", principally influenced by the works of Grasset d'Orcet, and in connection with alchemy and its symbolism.
devin
Sybil
Posts: 76
Joined: 09 May 2019, 06:24

Re: Tarot and the language of the birds

Post by devin »

I'm currently reading Lame Deer, Seeker of Visions and thought this passage was applicable to the current topic:

We also speak of the waayatan - the man of vision who can foretell events which will happen in the future, who has been given the power to see ahead. Things that have come true according to such a man's prediction are called wakinyanpi. This word also means the winged-ones, those who fly through the air, because the power to foretell the future comes from them.
User avatar
katrinka
Sage
Posts: 310
Joined: 18 May 2018, 08:42

Re: Tarot and the language of the birds

Post by katrinka »

devin wrote: 30 Jul 2019, 07:09 I'm currently reading Lame Deer, Seeker of Visions and thought this passage was applicable to the current topic:

We also speak of the waayatan - the man of vision who can foretell events which will happen in the future, who has been given the power to see ahead. Things that have come true according to such a man's prediction are called wakinyanpi. This word also means the winged-ones, those who fly through the air, because the power to foretell the future comes from them.
(Warning - OT) Ha! That one is my favorite of the Erdos books. John Fire Lame Deer would have been fun to hang out with. "Sitting on Teddy Roosevelt's head." And he was right - that damn statue still isn't finished. Nor will it ever be. 8-)
"Protect your spirit, because you are in the place where spirits get eaten." - John Trudell
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zyb9mPfwNhs
devin
Sybil
Posts: 76
Joined: 09 May 2019, 06:24

Re: Tarot and the language of the birds

Post by devin »

katrinka wrote: 30 Jul 2019, 08:25
devin wrote: 30 Jul 2019, 07:09 I'm currently reading Lame Deer, Seeker of Visions and thought this passage was applicable to the current topic:

We also speak of the waayatan - the man of vision who can foretell events which will happen in the future, who has been given the power to see ahead. Things that have come true according to such a man's prediction are called wakinyanpi. This word also means the winged-ones, those who fly through the air, because the power to foretell the future comes from them.
(Warning - OT) Ha! That one is my favorite of the Erdos books. John Fire Lame Deer would have been fun to hang out with. "Sitting on Teddy Roosevelt's head." And he was right - that damn statue still isn't finished. Nor will it ever be. 8-)
Seriously, this is the best and most enjoyably book I've read in ages. And I didn't expect it to be so damn funny. I also like it when Lame Deer says something along the lines of, "trying to be perfect is like putting your soul in a plastic bag." That's real wisdom, right there.

As for the statue: Maybe it is finished, standing as the perfect monument to arrogance and hubris? In that's case, it's spot-on as is.
User avatar
katrinka
Sage
Posts: 310
Joined: 18 May 2018, 08:42

Re: Tarot and the language of the birds

Post by katrinka »

It's a perfect monument to arrogance and hubris, but after 70 years, it's still just a face and a hole.
Capture.PNG


It's not even pointing the way to the mens' room yet. :lol:
"Protect your spirit, because you are in the place where spirits get eaten." - John Trudell
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zyb9mPfwNhs
devin
Sybil
Posts: 76
Joined: 09 May 2019, 06:24

Re: Tarot and the language of the birds

Post by devin »

katrinka wrote: 31 Jul 2019, 10:30 ... it's still just a face and a hole.
That's why it's such a good monument to hubris. :D
katrinka wrote: 31 Jul 2019, 10:30 It's not even pointing the way to the mens' room yet. :lol:
:lol: :lol: :lol:
User avatar
Desmond
Seer
Posts: 29
Joined: 26 May 2018, 00:47

Re: Tarot and the language of the birds

Post by Desmond »

Greetings,

As a contribution to the original topic of the tarot and the language of the birds, here are a few comments on the subject that I have written elsewhere:

I am very pleased to see that other people are taking an interest in the unique subject of the Language of the Birds. This language possesses a legendary history in myth and folklore bringing together a constellation of ideas including the ability to understand the languages of the animals, nature, the angels, or the science of rhythmic speech.

It was given a concrete historical identity in the literary heritage of France where it was associated with the discovery or concealment of hidden meaning within texts and poetry from the medieval Troubadours to the Modern Surrealists. Unlike the Gematria of the Kabbalists which is based on deciphering a numerical code, the Language of the Birds is largely auditory and based upon puns, including colloquial slang, and wordplay incorporating rhyme, anagram, homophony, and assonance.

In the 20th century, the primary source of information on the Language of the Birds was Fulcanelli who applied the art to reveal the alchemical teachings concealed within the engravings of the French Cathedrals. In the 21st Century, the primary source of information about this tradition is Enrique Enriquez who teaches the practice as an oracular approach to language. Like Fulcanelli, he also teaches how this language can be applied to images but instead of the Cathedrals he applies it to the images of the Tarot of Marseilles. Also unlike Fulcanelli, he doesn’t reveal a canonical interpretation akin to alchemical teachings. Instead he shows how it can be used to derive meaning within the context of the oracular use of the Tarot.

Also, here is a lengthy quotation from Enrique’s Wordcraft course, pp. 17-18:

——-

“The "Language of the Birds" is a metaphor describing a way of reading a text in which language moves forward by means of puns and wordplay rather than being guided by a narrative. Reading becomes the act of detecting patterns rather than the act of interpreting symbols. In this way, language becomes a 'pataphysical oracle, a mechanistic structure in which every word provides the means for its own derailment; words provide us with a way to swerve away from words.

This Language of the Birds seems to come from Provençal poetry, from a time when troubadours composed "cants" that were called "open" when they meant what they said, and "closed" when they said one thing but meant something else. Troubadours were the "makers of tropes", craftsmen of that sense of ambiguity that is the foundation of the poetic experience. Other names for the Language of the Birds are "green language" and "gai sçavoir", or "gay science". This is the science of the merry and unbridled language of poetry.

Ordinary reality is the domain of prose, and magic is the domain of poetry, a space where the structure of cause and effect is broken. We only get there once we run out of reasonable options, not so much to hope for the unreasonable, as to look for the unexpected. Poetry is based on magical thinking, as it operates under the rules of analogical causation. What is poetry but the laws of Sympathetic Magic applied to language?

In a poem, words seem to be magically linked by means of their aural or visual similarity. Once two words have been glued by this formal correspondence, we take the connection to be a form of "truth". In the Language of the Birds, grammar recedes to the background and form moves to the forefront. Form derails us from its function. We become readers of the word in the world.

We could consider the Language of the Birds as an imaginary folklore that links a whole lineage of poets, from the Provençal troubadours to Clement Marot, Rabelais, Gerard de Nerval, Alfred Jarry, Raymond Roussel, some of the surrealists like André Bretón, Michael Leiris and the elusive Marcel Duchamp. Most recently, that lineage continued through the OuLiPo group (which are the French ’pataphysicians), the Canadian ‘pataphisicians, like bp Nichol, Steve Mc- Caffery, Victor Coleman, their offspring Christian Bök, and also some Fluxus artists ...”

——-

Take Care,
Desmond
DISCLAIMER: The imaginary solutions contained in the tarot intend to give you the means for sabotaging reality through poetic action only. Any reliance you place on such imaginary solutions for reasons other than poetical is therefore strictly at your own risk. (EE)
User avatar
Diana
Sage
Posts: 1882
Joined: 13 May 2019, 17:23

Re: Tarot and the language of the birds

Post by Diana »

Desmond : Ooooh, now that is fascinating what you wrote. Deserves to be read more than once !! I'm very interested in what you say about the Surrealists and the language of the birds. I am going to look more into this. I suppose you know that French surrealists (including Andre Breton) designed their own Tarot of Marseilles while being holed up hiding from the Nazis during WW2. I've been thinking of making a thread about this. The deck is gorgeous and the history behind it worth knowing about. I'll have to translate some stuff from the French first though so I'll need some proper quality time to make a decent post.

So the language of the birds is equivalent to the "gai savoir" ? Hmmm... that's another snippet to remember.
Rumi was asked “which music sound is haram?” Rumi replied, "The sound of tablespoons playing in the pots of the rich, which are heard by the ears of the poor and hungry." (haram means forbidden)
User avatar
Lucifall
Seer
Posts: 49
Joined: 10 Aug 2019, 15:53

Re: Tarot and the language of the birds

Post by Lucifall »

The oldest written source for the language of the birds we find as far as i know in Persia.

The language of the birds – Farid ud-Din Attar

Farid ud-Din Attar wrote in the 12th century a poem of approx 4500 lines : 'Conference of the birds'
It really is a masterpiece of the Quest in Sufism in the search for enlightenment, with very much in common with tarot.
The poem describes a journey by a group of 30 birds. They are led by a Hoopie bird which is an allegory of a Sufi Master leading his pupils to enlightment.

This journey takes the birds through seven valleys of: The Quest, Love, Understanding, Independence and detachment, Unity, Astonishment and Poverty and Nothingness

The Quest :
lessons of a hundred difficulties and trials

Love:
lesson: love has nothing to do with reason

Understanding:
lesson: knowledge is temporary, but understanding endures. The overcoming of faults and weaknesses brings the seeker closer to the goal

Independence and detachment
lesson: in this valley the seeker has nothing to desire to possess nor any wish to discover. Here we have to renounce inner and outer attachments with the goal 'become self-sufficient.'

Unity + Astonishment
The most clever bird, The Guide of the birds the Hoopoe makes an anouncement in this valley of Unity..
'You may see many beings, in reality there is only one, which is complete in its unity.
When we are separated, good and evil will arise; but when you lose yourself in the divine essence, they will be transcended by love.'
This goal has to be reached before passing to the next valley is possible. Only when this unity is archieved, one is able to forget all and forgets oneself in the valley of astonishment and bewilderment.

Poverty and Nothingness
The Guide, the Hoopoe explains that the last valley is almost impossible to describe. The individual Self does not really excist anymore. The drop becomes part of the great ocean for ever in peace.

As we are reading the story of the quest of the fool...
Paths you don't draw as a blue-print; Use your lightest feet to create your own.
Lucifall
User avatar
Diana
Sage
Posts: 1882
Joined: 13 May 2019, 17:23

Re: Tarot and the language of the birds

Post by Diana »

Lucifall : What an absolutely beautiful and extraordinary allegory on the quest for the realisation of Oneness. I am printing out your post to use as a bookmark and will therefore read it often. Love has nothing to do with reason. Oh, how I love this. Nothing to do with reason. That's what I tell people all the time - I tell them to love without reason - but they don't listen. They say that love needs a reason and that they usually expect a return, either directly from the recipient or from the "universe" as they call it - as if love were an exchange of some sort instead of a gift. I often wish to give them a blown up poster of the Ace of Cups to put in their rooms in the hope that this will inspire them.

And indeed, a story that parallels the journey one can take in the Tarot if one so wishes. (Although I say it's the Bateleur's/Magician journey due to the fact that in the Tarot of Marseilles, I believe it's the Bateleur that makes the journey, and not the Fool. I consider the TdM to be the Ur Tarot so all my references and understanding of the Tarot come from the TdM. That being said, it's not set in stone that it's the Bateleur's journey. One of the finest TdM scholars, Alain Bocher, thinks it's the Fool's journey - we had an email debate about it once a long time ago when I translated some texts for him, but we both ended up sticking to our guns.)

Doesn't surprise me that the language of the birds originated in Persia. A friend of mine is a serious student of the Farsi language and we were discussing Rumi the other day. I was telling him how much I love Rumi's poetry, but don't understand most of it so I just read it for the beauty and the poetry. He told me that this is normal. He said that one would really require a reference study book alongside the translated poems if one were to understand them, due the fact that the Farsi language is full of this language of the birds (although he didn't mention this term - he probably doesn't know it). He gave the example of the word "head". He says when a person who understands Farsi sees the word "head", they immediately also associate it with "mountain" as the words have the same root or something that is similar. Said "head" would therefore refer also to a "mountain", said mountain also referred to in other spiritual writings and referring to the "higher consciousness" (like when Moses in the Bible goes up to the "mountain" and receives the 10 commandments. There never was a mountain - it's just an allegory.) The translators do their best, but come up against a wall too often due to the intricacies of Farsi.

I often listen to podcasts or watch videos on Sufism. Am particularly fond of Llewellyn Vaughan Lee who is a Sufi mystic. It's through one of his videos on youtube that I actually discovered Sufism. I gave a link to it when I first joined this forum in this thread : viewtopic.php?f=49&t=1406. (If you watch it and I recommend it highly, it's fascinating how when he really seems to be transcending his ego, he becomes almost transparent - like glass - that struck me so hard.)
Rumi was asked “which music sound is haram?” Rumi replied, "The sound of tablespoons playing in the pots of the rich, which are heard by the ears of the poor and hungry." (haram means forbidden)
User avatar
Lucifall
Seer
Posts: 49
Joined: 10 Aug 2019, 15:53

Re: Tarot and the language of the birds

Post by Lucifall »

Marigold wrote: 19 Aug 2019, 14:37 Lucifall : What an absolutely beautiful and extraordinary allegory on the quest for the realisation of Oneness. I am printing out your post to use as a bookmark and will therefore read it often. Love has nothing to do with reason. Oh, how I love this. Nothing to do with reason. That's what I tell people all the time - I tell them to love without reason - but they don't listen. They say that love needs a reason and that they usually expect a return, either directly from the recipient or from the "universe" as they call it - as if love were an exchange of some sort instead of a gift. I often wish to give them a blown up poster of the Ace of Cups to put in their rooms in the hope that this will inspire them.
Thanks for this input Marigold. The book of Atta is really great. I have read it several times.Interesting friend. I am wondering: Does he know this poem of Atta?
Language of the birds... I met it often during travels in Asia....

I use RWS (I prefer to call it PCS ;-) )and B.O.T.A. tarot for study.
Years i was kind of convinced in the correspondences but now i more and more feel fe the Magician must be on the path from Kether to Chockmah. The way the magician on RWS is drawing the powers from above and pointing these powers downwards this posture fits in this path; not in the path Kether Binah, Magician as starting point. Somehow the fool on the path of Taw does not feel well for me.
Maybe it is time for me to study the TDM more intensively.
Paths you don't draw as a blue-print; Use your lightest feet to create your own.
Lucifall
User avatar
Diana
Sage
Posts: 1882
Joined: 13 May 2019, 17:23

Re: Tarot and the language of the birds

Post by Diana »

Lucifall wrote: 20 Aug 2019, 06:03
Years i was kind of convinced in the correspondences but now i more and more feel fe the Magician must be on the path from Kether to Chockmah. The way the magician on RWS is drawing the powers from above and pointing these powers downwards this posture fits in this path; not in the path Kether Binah, Magician as starting point. Somehow the fool on the path of Taw does not feel well for me.
Maybe it is time for me to study the TDM more intensively.
I think this topic would actually be worth discussing in a new thread devoted to this topic. It's one of my pet debates, one that I always get drawn back into with great passion !! "Is it the Bateleur's or the Fool's journey ?"
Rumi was asked “which music sound is haram?” Rumi replied, "The sound of tablespoons playing in the pots of the rich, which are heard by the ears of the poor and hungry." (haram means forbidden)
User avatar
Lucifall
Seer
Posts: 49
Joined: 10 Aug 2019, 15:53

Re: Tarot and the language of the birds

Post by Lucifall »

[/quote]I think this topic would actually be worth discussing in a new thread devoted to this topic. It's one of my pet debates, one that I always get drawn back into with great passion !! "Is it the Bateleur's or the Fool's journey ?"
[/quote]

It must be worth it.
You open this new tread? (not knowing how to open a new one and still puzzling how to add pictures)
Paths you don't draw as a blue-print; Use your lightest feet to create your own.
Lucifall
Post Reply

Return to “Tarot de Marseille”